who actually put the CISRS Inspection course together.

SWIFTY said:
---------- Post added at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------

[/COLOR]Swifty, feel free to jump on the bandwagon 'what's your opinion?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the invitation,

My opinion is, to inspect advanced scaffolds you should be at least an advanced scaffolder.[/QUOTE]

Mine is as well. But i also allow an engineer to do it because if they have designed it then i feel they will be competent.
 
Agree with you Garry, just goes to show the whole system needs an overhaul!!!!!!:eek:

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

What if that engineer had no experience in scaffolding!
 
ragscaff

Perhaps we the SCCR will get the opportunity to contribute to a new age Training Regime, perhaps founded on the old school philosophy and new bolt-on Safety Culture.

Garry...
 
Garry Adams said:
Simian

To be quite honest that is very disappointing, however, it is either a reflection on the diligence they payed whilst attending their Scaffold Course or pure complacency on their behest either way it is totally un acceptable. They should have been made to re-sit their Basic Card---failing at such basic's, shocking...

Garry...
Click to expand...

A light duty scaffold catches them all out as they put 2.1m, swivels, doubles and sleeves have changed their SWL and some back in EN74 and TG20:08, a lot of the scaffs that come on are old heads and never done any training (AROE) or Grandfather rights, they have their notes and it still does not jump out. Another is: Do free standing scaffolds need to be designed for timber frame? Lots get that wrong.

I always feel let down by them when they can talk scaffolding all day contribute to the course with good stories, pass the practical with flying colours but cant get 20 multiple choice questions out of 25 right.

Before anyone mentions the test we did the expert report for Milton Keynes and the detail we were asked to comment on was the competence of the boss scaffolder and the quality of the scaffold inspection course he did. We also reviewed his exam result

Ian

---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------
ragscaff said:
Agree with you Garry, just goes to show the whole system needs an overhaul!!!!!!:eek:

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

What if that engineer had no experience in scaffolding!
Click to expand...

Stewart when i refer to the engineer i mean the scaffold designer who has drawn it.
 
so if everybody is in agreement why isnt the consultation happening? we need reform.
 
no but thinking about it. common sense doesnt prevail anymore. but i still want the gezzers name . dave wont reply...
 
Perhaps the New Training Regime should include a Scaffold Engineering Qualification, this provision will give the Design Engineer an insight into the selection of the different component parts available for the Design i e Mills 90's B&P, pressed Steel, Drop Forged ect ect.

Garry...
 
simian said:
A light duty scaffold catches them all out as they put 2.1m, swivels, doubles and sleeves have changed their SWL and some back in EN74 and TG20:08, a lot of the scaffs that come on are old heads and never done any training (AROE) or Grandfather rights, they have their notes and it still does not jump out. Another is: Do free standing scaffolds need to be designed for timber frame? Lots get that wrong.

I always feel let down by them when they can talk scaffolding all day contribute to the course with good stories, pass the practical with flying colours but cant get 20 multiple choice questions out of 25 right.

Before anyone mentions the test we did the expert report for Milton Keynes and the detail we were asked to comment on was the competence of the boss scaffolder and the quality of the scaffold inspection course he did. We also reviewed his exam result

Ian

---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------



Stewart when i refer to the engineer i mean the scaffold designer who has drawn it.
Click to expand...


Sorry to be thick but what experience does a scaffold designer need.

Are you an engineer first who then gets qualified as a scaffolder or a scaffolder with a lot of time on his hands who becomes an engineer.

How much experience does a designer need to design scaffolding?

I have had many a drawing that would not work, in the past I was able to change it & sign the drawing, now I am only allowed to read it!! Advanced card & over 20 years spinning my spanners & not deemed qualified or skilled enough. :eek:

Stewart
 
pud said:
no but thinking about it. common sense doesnt prevail anymore. but i still want the gezzers name . dave wont reply...
Click to expand...

If you want a voice join Garry and Stewart, i did it years ago with a guy called Jake Molloy of the OILC, he helped me move in to this game. I still speak to him now.

Ian

---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------
Garry Adams said:
ragscaff

Perhaps we the SCCR will get the opportunity to contribute to a new age Training Regime, perhaps founded on the old school philosophy and new bolt-on Safety Culture.

Garry...
Click to expand...

I saw you where looking for something that was lost, was it by your instruction and will the genuine secrets ever come out.

Ian
 
simian said:
If you want a voice join Garry and Stewart, i did it years ago with a guy called Jake Molloy of the OILC, he helped me move in to this game. I still speak to him now.

Ian

---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------



I saw you where looking for something that was lost, was it by your instruction and will the genuine secrets ever come out.

Ian
Click to expand...
?????
 
Ian

Being a Scaffolder yourself, we the SCCR will assist you to repair that loss, and may heaven aid our combined endeavors...

Fraternal regards

Garry...
 
I smite myself reading these threads.
 
Dont see any problem with a person being trained to recognise a few defects in scaffolds. Defects that are so obvious but poor workmanship that stubborn scaffs fail to acknowledge. I done the 2 day scaffold inspection course and now have a certificate that says I am competent to do a report on a scaffold. I have done this recently,check my photo's out on albums and tell me im wrong and the scaffold is in good nick. That scaffold was put up by advanced scaffs.
Be careful what you say,when you state objections against untrained persons questioning the work of trained ,and ticketed scaffs.
I do believe part of the sccr mandate is to support the eictb boys whom I believe have no training,also time served scaffs working on grandads rights also no tickets,of which I am one.
Geoffbecks has been honest with his explanation as to the thinking behind the program as a course to give site managers some indication of what could be wrong with a scaffold. Also stating that course is not to enable managers to erect,dismantle or modify a scaffold. Quite clearly.
A scaffold inspector would normally be an independant person,who arrives on a weekly basis.files his report to management(not scaffolder) who then takes appropriate action to rectify.

Having said all that,and having done the course,I learnt a lot as did the scaffs that attended. I also believe any person doing this course should have a background or knowledge of scaffolding to begin with.
Pud who started this thread has actually contributed nill to resolving the debate except drag simian into it and repeatedly asking for a number to correct the situation.How are you going to do that pud,please explain.

To simian and other course providers,you need to send a whole broscure out to non scaffs before doing this course explaining the basics, values and applications' like what a double is, a single,swivle,connecter, ledger, transome,standard,putlog,sway/facade brace,ledgerbrace,dogleg,puncheon,dropper,scarf,bridle,splice baseplates,fans,unit beams,spurs,rakers,waffles, aberdeen ties,shall I go on.

This is stuff others on the course had no idea about before starting and indeed,on completion of course

This takes years to learn,little wonder scaffs get a cob on when a 2 day inspector starts shouting the odds
Pre course exams to qualify for the course. It is all about heath and saftey aint it????
Unless its just about the money lol

---------- Post added at 03:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 AM ----------

And another thing. As you all got plenty to say, There is a growing voice that you need,and needs your support. SCCR
 
Last edited:
Totally agree with you Fredrick about a test before the course, but I still feel that you should require a scaffold back ground. The problem I can see is the site manager has to much on his plate anyway to then put extra on top of that with the inspection is totally wrong.
If the HSE really wanted this sorted out then they should have inspection department. I no there are many inspection company's but main contractor have failed to use this and oppt for the cheap route ie site manager etc at a cost of let's say £600 one of payment where as a true inspector for a company that only deals in inspection will charge £....?


Geoffbecks can you answer these one mate not a trick just dont understand how?
Where does the site manager stand with pull tests ?
If the scaffold has a tie how can he inspect and register it / tag ?
 
Inspection Training

Just to add some more talking points.

Regarding Inspectors, it is agreed by everyone, and stipulated by HSA etc, that they must be competent so I have a few questions, and answers.
Do the people who complete a inspection training course prove competency ?
Answer: No they do not.
Do the trainers/centre/CISRS certificate them as competent ?
Answer: No they do not.
Who can prove they are competent to inspect a scaffold ?
Answer: Scaffolders.
Is it possible to design a scaffold without scaffolding background or experience ?
Answer: Yes it is.

It cannot make sense to say I must complete a minimum of 18 months training and experience to be recognised a Scaffolder but only 2 days to be recognised as a Inspector who can overule and instruct, directly or indirectly, the Scaffolder to alter a scaffold.

There is a competency unit available for inspection of scaffold within the UK NVQ system although this is seldom used. I have experience of this with a company named Safety and Access in Nottingham who, it must be said, showed a good foresight in trying to implement this award.

While looking at the earlier threads it is clear that there are some poorly informed people who may be responsible for inspection of scaffolding and a good example is where BS EN is quoted as being, "Legislation", when, it is not. BS EN is a "Code Of Practice". This type of understanding does contribute to problems at work where people constantly quote these codes of practice as legally binding. Example: My son, a Scaffolder was informed by a safety advisor that he, and his company, "MUST", use the Scaffolder's Step to install scaffolding.

Within the 2 Day Basic Scaffold Inspection training an Instructor must attempt to teach and assess;
Course and centre induction.
HASAWA
WAHR
Relevant Regs
ACOPS (There are none as these have a special place in law and do not include any for Scaffolding)
Scaffold Terminology
Scaffold Materials
Means of Access
Gin Wheels and Ropes (Should be Means of Lifting and Lowering Equipment)
Scaffold Ties
Construction Regulations (Think should be CDM Regulations now)
Recommendations for Basic Scaffolds.
Practical Inspection
Reports

This should cover the following scaffold structures;
Independent
Putlog
Birdcage
Tower
Scaffold with Beams
Protection Fans
Pavement Gantry
Loading Bay
Roof Saddle
Splay Scaffold
Roof Edge Protection
Trussout Scaffold.

Think most would agree that this means a lot of the content is only, "glossed over", and, in no way, could anyone be looked upon as Competent on completion.

Sorry this is such a long post but one more point.

Regarding the actual presentation. Any organisation who wishes to conduct a CISRS inspection training course MUST purchase this presentation and lesson plans etc for a cost of 750 for the basic and 500 for the advanced.
Whether the presentation is good or not is a matter of opinion but forcing someone to buy this when they find it unacceptable quality is wrong and seems to prove the point of Ragscaff and others that making money is more important than quality training and safety.

Sorry, one more point.
A substantial part of this presentation is copied from various sources who have provided this free of charge provided they receive proper recognition.
Some of the content was offered previously for a fee and CISRS refused the offer obviously preferring to obtain it without payment.

What does that say about CISRS ?
This is why we need organisations like SCCR. Please support them as they are the only hope.
There are far too many self serving people and organisations involved in the construction industry and it's time the people who do the work had a say.

Congratulations to all on this forum for speaking your mind and keeping us informed. Best of luck to SCCR for the future and keep up the great work.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom