who actually put the CISRS Inspection course together.

Kevin

i just typed quite a big reply, computer had logged me out when i went to post it and i really cant be arsed to do it again.

Jist of it was i agree.

A system needs time to establish.

If the companies where to put the lads on courses such as IOSH managing safetly they would then begin to understand the duty of care side and that the whole game is bigger than 1 person. Most scaffs tat i have worked with do things cos that was how they were shown not this is why we do it and this is the reg/ACOP/company policy.
 
Podger said:
To answer your question Geoff a lot more knowledge an experience than you yourself appear to have .

"As from 1st January 2011 the Health and Safety Executive will no longer acknowledge BS5973:1993 (British Standard) as a recognised standard for the design of tube and fitting scaffolding structures"
Click to expand...

This just about sums up the mentality we are dealing with....It's because of people like this with this kind of

" Im a scaffolder been doing it years, so you don't know jack"

attitude that we have this issue going on at all.
I totally agree that the person that is carrying out the inspection needs to be competent, unfortunatly that rules out 90% of the scaffolders that attend training centers, due to not being able to get through to them what the new legislations are because they are not interested in that bit...
They love to try and hemp long'ens or stand them up while on their knees but in the class you can see their eyes glaze over or fall asleep.
The level of knowledge, about minimum british standards that most scaffolders I meet have is unbeliveable...most of the lads that attend the part two courses, can't answer the part one questions from a course they have already passed.

So It's a case of industry being stuck between a rock and a hard place, maybe if scaffolders raised their game industry could change, but until they do I see this debate continuing for a long time

I wonder how much abuse Mr Podger will give me for saying this...but if it makes him feel good then crack on...
I don't pretend to know everything but I know what I see each day and we all know what I am saying is true
 
geoffbecks said:
This just about sums up the mentality we are dealing with....It's because of people like this with this kind of

" Im a scaffolder been doing it years, so you don't know jack"

attitude that we have this issue going on at all.
I totally agree that the person that is carrying out the inspection needs to be competent, unfortunatly that rules out 90% of the scaffolders that attend training centers, due to not being able to get through to them what the new legislations are because they are not interested in that bit...
They love to try and hemp long'ens or stand them up while on their knees but in the class you can see their eyes glaze over or fall asleep.
The level of knowledge, about minimum british standards that most scaffolders I meet have is unbeliveable...most of the lads that attend the part two courses, can't answer the part one questions from a course they have already passed.

So It's a case of industry being stuck between a rock and a hard place, maybe if scaffolders raised their game industry could change, but until they do I see this debate continuing for a long time

I wonder how much abuse Mr Podger will give me for saying this...but if it makes him feel good then crack on...
I don't pretend to know everything but I know what I see each day and we all know what I am saying is true
Click to expand...

Sorry all that says to me is what I already knew. The training system is s**t.

If you have already got scaffolders in the system that do not know what they are doing then the training has failed before it started. Or the training is not set up for scaffolders.

All the guys I have teached over the last 20years know they have to learn the detail. But then I am a scaffolder teaching scaffolders!!

Ragscaff
 
geoffbecks

If this is indeed the case then it is a sad indictment on the Training Regime and in part the attitude of the Trainee.

Don't shoot the messenger---lets fix it together...

Garry...
 
When I started you got it wrong you got smashed with a fist or a fitting, now you get a tea break.

No back bone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
 
Your scaffolder teaching scaffolders ...so am I
I never got my ticket by grandfarther rights I had to go to a traing center that had just opened a week or two before I attened in Erith..1980 i think it was
Don't start me on the level of teaching......
Some of us are trying to do the right thing
I know an instructor at that failed a lad on a part two because the bloke could not erect four standards to set out a tower.
That Instructor was then suspended because the candidate involved compained that he was being bulled and he got some of the other candidates to lie and say the instructor keepr kicking his work over and that he was not made aware he was going to be assessed.
So its a brave instructor that has the balls and fails someone.....
And then has to deal with the candidates and work collegues that turn against him
 
Sorry I work in the real world. If someone does not cut it they are gone!!

I put a lot of time in & give lots of time & effort. All at my cost as I am normally on target, now its my own firm.

I know within two days if someone will make it or not, they get 100% from me. Sometimes you get the odd one come back through but not often.

I did not mean to put you down, teaching is very hard but the system needs to be better. Skills test prior to training then you would get a better quality & you would enjoy your job more!!

Ragscaff
 
This is the most thoughtful, factual & provocitive sensible post that I have ever seen displayed on the SF, true facts & hearsay that at the end of the day show & prove the contemp that the Construction Industry Scaffolders Robbery Scheme have regularly subjected us the CISRS scheme paying members to , by the way with no voice or spokesman to challenge these non demorcratic fuc*king Gansters with pens, How are we guna play even, big statement but the only reilistic way is for the SCCR to set there own card scheme up?....This post could set the wheels in motion, Why Not



I payed £480 last month for what??? been a safety officer /advisor for 3 years but like to keep up wi change!!!..... What change (no new content from the basic course two year previous) a new cash cow... Especially if site managers can tell the Scaffolding Co-ordinator what the SP is regarding Advanced structures.

Scaffolders can Inspect Advanced Structures not Site agents or managers: Greedy CISRS. Define Competence W@H2005???????????????????????????????????????????
 
You think this is the most thoughtful, factual & provocitive sensible post that you have ever seen displayed on the SF,....not bad since it only asked for the name of the person that put the inspection course together & the content...
I have kind of played devils advicate through out...and I have asked the question repeatedly as to how much product knowledge does it take to look at a scaffold and judge it against written minimum standards...I think little as its just a case of esuring what your looking at agrees with what you have in writing
That is not to say it takes little knowledge to assemble it.....But it also now in this day and age takes a good understanding of the law to erect it correctly
I give 100% of my time and effort to my candidates every two weeks on every new class and I know this is true for 90% of the instructors..as for the cost well I have nothing to do with that...if the course information has given you nothing new then that shows that you are keeping up with the changes that are occuring constant in our industry.....as for that making it a rip off.....I don't know.! not everyone keeps upto date and all of our courses if delivered well should impart some knowledge down to the candidate....I wonder how many airline pilots feel they have been ripped off when thayhave have to attend updates for their industry to learn potentualy nothing new...and £500 to them would be cheap as chips,
If you really do come away empty handed then that is a shame as you will feel as though you got nothing for your money, but as I have said before you can't please all of the people all of the time.
However if everyone was as on top of their game as you are then there would be no accidents or injuries and no need for any training centre..
I wonder what you expected to get from the course as you feel so ripped off
 
Last edited:
geoffbecks said:
Your scaffolder teaching scaffolders ...so am I
I never got my ticket by grandfarther rights I had to go to a traing center that had just opened a week or two before I attened in Erith..1980 i think it was
Don't start me on the level of teaching......
Some of us are trying to do the right thing
I know an instructor at that failed a lad on a part two because the bloke could not erect four standards to set out a tower.
That Instructor was then suspended because the candidate involved compained that he was being bulled and he got some of the other candidates to lie and say the instructor keepr kicking his work over and that he was not made aware he was going to be assessed.
So its a brave instructor that has the balls and fails someone.....
And then has to deal with the candidates and work collegues that turn against him
Click to expand...

Hi Geoff, can you mind when you pulled me up on me BSEN wrong numbers yisterdad??? you cant even spell compained,collegues,bulled or traing.... Think you would make a top Dog cisrs ADVANCED iNSPECTIOR Instructor.:idea:

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 PM ----------
geoffbecks said:
You think this is the most thoughtful, factual & provocitive sensible post that you have ever seen displayed on the SF,....not bad since it only asked for the name of the person that put the inspection course together & the content...
I have kind of played devils advicate through out...and I have asked the question repeatedly as to how much product knowledge does it take to look at a scaffold and judge it against written minimum standards...I think little as its just a case of esuring what your looking at agrees with what you have in writing
That is not to say it takes little knowledge to assemble it.....But it also now in this day and age takes a good understanding of the law to erect it correctly
I give 100% of my time and effort to my candidates every two weeks on every new class and I know this is true for 90% of the instructors..as for the cost well I have nothing to do with that...if the course information has given you nothing new then that shows that you are keeping up with the changes that are occuring constant in our industry.....as for that making it a rip off.....I don't know.! not everyone keeps upto date and all of our courses if delivered well should impart some knowledge down to the candidate....I wonder how many airline pilots feel they have been ripped off when thayhave have to attend updates for their industry to learn potentualy nothing new...and £500 to them would be cheap as chips,
If you really do come away empty handed then that is a shame as you will feel as though you got nothing for your money, but as I have said before you can't please all of the people all of the time.
However if everyone was as on top of their game as you are then there would be no accidents or injuries and no need for any training centre..
I wonder what you expected to get from the course as you feel so ripped off
Click to expand...

Think GB is the new JP, chinaman or Bulldog with half of brain:wondering:
 
Once a scaffolder always a scaffolder!!

It ain't rocket science:eek:

You can either do it or not, if you can then updates are simples YES:rolleyes:

Half of those being taught at the moment can not make it, that is why its so hard.

Skills test them before & get rid of those who can't do it!!!

Ragscaff
 
ragscaff

Candidate selection would be a consideration, it is not enough to aspire to Train to become a Scaffold Erector---aptitude and the mental desire to achieve the high standards demanded should play a part in candidate selection.

Gar...
 
ragscaff said:
Once a scaffolder always a scaffolder!!

It ain't rocket science:eek:

You can either do it or not, if you can then updates are simples YES:rolleyes:

Half of those being taught at the moment can not make it, that is why its so hard.

Skills test them before & get rid of those who can't do it!!!

Ragscaff
Click to expand...

If only it was that simple....ever heard of OFSTED
Learners needs
vunarable adults
every learner matters

you can't boot someone out...you have to give that learner more attention, more help, more time.........and you can't pass that aditional cost onto the candidate as that would be deemed victamising him, you can't swear at him in case he took offence and then complained he was being bullied

or of course you can take the easy route and say well done .....YOU PASSED
 
Thats what I am saying, skills test & they wont get in the Ofsted system.

I am not a teacher in class I am a teacher in life!!

Ragscaff
 
Flippin ek the text I have received is true.

Whats kicked all this off..

Yes geoff you are quite correct we are there to encourage not discourage. Those days of shouting at them are long gone.

think ill give my buddy a call and see who has knicked his work.

hope every body is fine otherwise.

regards

Steve Gregory.
 
Steve

Hows thing with you ???---hope all is well---had a nice PM from Kev earlier today---whats your take on adopting a selection process ???

Gar...
 
Things are very busy Garry. Im great thanks hope everything is ok with you.

not sure on any selection process Garry myself. I do believe in every horse should be led to water.. weather they drink it or not is another matter.

I firmly believe in encouraging the candidates not knocking them after all the training center is supposed to be the place where they can make mistakes. That why its a training centre. Then those errors can be picked up on and rectified.

I totally agree with what kevin has wrote. For gods sake ASITO / CSCS/ CISRS / NASC speak to this guy, he knows more about training than every 1 of you. After all I would say nearly every instructor in the uk has some of kevs work somewhere in there presentation stuff. I think he is owed at least a major written appology , It would be a tragedy if he left the industry and training forever all because of somebody not asking permission in the first place.

This matter needs dealing with the upmost urgency.


S. G.
 
Steve

I may have missed what happened with Kev---was his work pledgerised ???

Gar...
 
looks that way.
he has gave work away before but always on the understanding that they do not sell it or they give him recongition for his work.
It looks like the mark has been over stepped.

He did tell me that CISRS once offered to buy his work. he gave them the price and they ran a mile but it looks like the coffers have been banking well on what im reading.

I would like to know how many copies of this has been sold as an actual figure.

There is 1 training centre that I know of in the uk which is showing kevs work and that is safety and access in nottingham. Mr Ray Johnson (the gentleman he is) actually gives accredition to kev for it aswell.

Looks like take , take , take and no give yet again.

S. G.
 
So after all this I have found out the construction skills developed the course on behalf of CISRS. All I ever wanted to know was the gezzers name. It was so I could get in touch myself with the gezzer / lady, who developed it.
 
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