Ecitb scaffs tkt

I would love to see this happen, however it will contravene the law stating specific training. Best of luck I say but I think smmoke is being blown up some place here
 
phil181 said:
The assesed route of entry was scrapped for the same reason. The WAH regs requires formal training as opposed to an assesement of any description.

It basically all comes down to a 2001 EU directive.

So if you wanna change the rules, you'd better head off to Brussels.

European Amending Directive 2001/45/EC
Click to expand...

WAHR 2005
Staff training
Regulations 5 and 6(5)(b)
19 You must ensure that everyone involved in the work is competent (or, if being trained, is supervised by a competent person). This includes involvement in organisation, planning, supervision, and the supply and maintenance of equipment.
20 Where other precautions do not entirely eliminate the risk of a fall occurring, you must (as far as it is reasonably practicable to do so) train those who will be working at height how to avoid falling, and how to avoid or minimise injury to themselves should they fall.
 
Even if its smoke its a start!!:D

Oh dear we are over 500 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scaffy you have a new scaff :)
 
Is the ECITB scaffs tkt thread full

Hi guys
I think the ECITB thread is full, i can get to page 50 then add 51, however, after that nowt:sick: there is important information ongoing, and rhetoric, concerning this thread, we might have to wait till tomorrow for SF admin to advise, after all there has only been over 10,000 visits, and 500 posts, ( T-Animal) gets a job through it.;)

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

It could be me, my PC is having a right hissy fit, too much porn i think:eek:
 
Oh man i have a day off, and the thread bursts into life, thanks for everyones comments good and bad, but thats what having an opinion means. we will have to wait and see what happens.:bigsmile:
 
T.ANIMAL said:
Oh man i have a day off, and the thread bursts into life, thanks for everyones comments good and bad, but thats what having an opinion means. we will have to wait and see what happens.:bigsmile:
Click to expand...

yeah as stated above thanks for the support good or bad wouldnt be a forum otherwise!!! and thankyou instructor for this new information.lets hope in the comeing weeks this will be more clearer.
 
paddy carr said:
Hi guys
I think the ECITB thread is full, i can get to page 50 then add 51, however, after that nowt:sick: there is important information ongoing, and rhetoric, concerning this thread, we might have to wait till tomorrow for SF admin to advise, after all there has only been over 10,000 visits, and 500 posts, ( T-Animal) gets a job through it.;)

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 PM ----------

It could be me, my PC is having a right hissy fit, too much porn i think:eek:
Click to expand...

be going on the stock market as from next week paddy combined with the sccr and forum lol!!!!!!!
 
Hi all, been in touch with Dave Mosley and within 20 mins of sending my email, he had the courtesy of not only emailing me but ringing me up, i have been wrong about him, so would like to put the record straight on that one, the guy seems to be a decent bloke and talks straight and how it is, but not good news is the only downfall to the conversation, have been trying all morning to track the unite guy down over the meeting that they had with Nasc, last week, but no joy, awaiting a call back tomorrow when hes back in the office, i will ask if he can email the information from the meeting rather than do it over the phone, so i dont miss anything, i will post it on here. This is what i received from Dave Mosley and below it is what i sent.
Mr ********

Our scheme is based upon CISRS approved training (CISRS Part 1, 2 Advanced etc), experience (which you undoubtedly have) assessment (VQ) and Health and Safety requirement (CSkills H&S test or exemptions) until this requirement is met we cannot issue a CISRS Scaffolder card.



I do not see grounds for a legal case as our scheme is open to anyone who completes the required criteria.



The ECITB/ECI skills database card has never been recognised by CISRS as it was issued under industry accreditation so as you state we will not transfer your card ECITB like for like with a CISRS card.



This issue has been ongoing for over 10 years when ECITB first proposed withdrawing their Scaffolders card. This was a decision they made of their own volition, with no pressure exerted from NASC or CISRS. We have had many meetings with ECITB and the Unions about this over the years and the decision to continue with the card or withdraw it is entirely up to those parties.



I have attached a Trainee application form, I appreciate it is not what you were hoping for but at least it may help you in getting a job initially and will allow you to work whilst completing your training, should you choose to go down this route.



Regards
Dave Mosley

CISRS

Dear Mr David Mosley,
I am a 42year old scaffolder that finds himself no longer able to gain employment because of the withdrawal of the Ecitb scaffolders card, due to the insistance of Nasc, on everyone having a Cisrs card . There has been a decline in people holding the Ecitb card, hence the withdrawal of them. I agree that our industry needs to be regulated and scaffolders hold the approiate ticket, to be governed in a safe working practice and that Nasc is achieveing this.

I have been in scaffolding since 1997 starting at Dungeness Power Station as a labourer for 2 years, then another 2 years as a trainee/improver being trained under a CITB advanced scaffolder, then on satisfying him and the contracts manager of my competence , they applied for my Ecitb Card Grade 4 Basic in 2001, then another 4 years later was granted my grade 5 Advanced. I had been working with a number of Cisrs Gold card holders, receiving training and experience in all aspects of scaffolding, so their competency is beyond question, regarding the work that I was involved with I can supply testomonials, references and photographic evidence of my work which fulfills your criteria for part 1, part 2 and advanced.


I have worked on, putlog, birdcage, staitic tower, prefabricated beam work, protective fan, loading bays to drawings, roof saddles, hanging scaffold, cantilevered drop, roof edge protection, 2 way/shoring dead, ramp. reading drawings, testings of ties, filling out and understanding RAMS, harnessed trained to SG4:05.


I have worked for Interserve, Cape and Hertel in Power Stations, New Housing Sites and National Grid Sites all over Britain who are Nasc members and some serve on Nasc sub committees, I believe part of being a member that 75% of the workforce need to be Cisrs carded and so after nearly 9 years with Cape and a downturn of work I have been laid off by them, but now things are picking up they are employing Cisrs carded scaffs only , so I feel I have been let down by your organisation ,and one of your members , along with several other scaffolders , who are in there forties with vast experience and training and have been left to rot.


I feel that 13 years of being in the industry more than makes me "competent" not to have to gain entry on the Cisrs card scheme as a trainee, in fact I find it very insulting that a lad can walk off the street and go on a 10 day course, the same as the one you expect me to do.


I know the Working at Height Regulation 2005 that was brought in about training required, experience and competency , well what have I been doing in the 8 years it took me to get my advance ? I had more training, instruction, experience and competency than someone who has had 30 days at college in a 2 year period to obtain their advanced .


I have approached Unite over this and a new organisation, the SCCR who I believe you are aware of, and I am seeking legal advice if there is a case to be answered, into whyi cant be granted a Cisrs card with the qualifications and experience that I hold in order to be able to work.


I know there is not one person, that has appealed and been successful in having a like for like ticket and that is why that I may have to consider going down the legal route to find out why you are stopping me from obtaining work, when I can produce all the proof that in a court of law, may agree that I have received training and experience in 13 years of scaffolding . You dont wake up one morning and your a scaffolder (unlike a Health and Safety consultant) which I believe you dont need a qualification to do . It takes years of learning being taught by someone, is that not training ? I read in your your booklet that your apprenticeships for 16-24, states that most of the training is on site, well whats mine been ?


I hope you will look into my case and any information you require, in getting this matter dealt with successfully. Please do not hesitate to contact me.



I look forward to your prompt reply.


Your sincerely

Mr ********************



Mobile: **********************

THe WAHR 2005 will require those who work at height to be competent, defination of competence as it enables an individual to be assessed relatively easily,
A competent person is a person who can demostrate that they have sufficent professional or technical training, knowledge,actual experience and authority to enable them;
1) carry out their assingned duties at the level of responsibilty allocated to them.
2) understand any potential hazards related to the work (or equipment) under construction.
3) detect any technical defects or omissions in that work, reconise any implication for Health and Safety caused by those defects or omissions and be able to specify a remedial action to mitigate those implications.
I have the following certificates CITB;
2 Day basic Scaffold inspection course,
Risk Assessment course
Fall Arrest Retrieval course,
Harness User and Pre Inspection course
Manuel Handling course,
Then the following courses,
CCNSG Safety Passport,
CSCS Health and Safety,
Besc Health and Safety
Eakring Competent Person National Grid.
and IPAF Scissor Lift and Cherry Picker (Facelift)
 
a combined age of 87 and we get offered trainee cards. and a combined scaffolding career cut short of 38 years what a load of cods wallop!!!!!!!!!
 
it gets better not, goverment funding is getting withdrawn, why fight the system, monday morning i go and sign on, paint my face black, wont speak cause i dont know english, and need help filing out the form and see how far that gets me, this time next week i could be housed in a 5 bedroom mansion and on a grand a week, fu** scaffolding then i will just be a parasite working the system. got the f**king hump, just let me go to work and earn a crust you muppets. :mad:
 
What a load of bull.

If the NASC supported the ECITB guys it would have meant an investment!!

Yet they say they had no part in the removal, yeh right!!

Bet they thought all their Christmas's came at once.

Why do the NASC tell construction companies they can supply qualified scaffolders when their scheme is a record scheme , its a con!!

T.Animal if you want work I will give you work in Wales digs paid, but the NASC & CISRS are a load of con artists.

When I get my act together & the SCCR committee is in full swing we will tackle this head on because its all wrong.

Unite have a lot to answer too & I will be contacting them again over the weekend to try & tackle the deal issue.

Thanks for the info T.Animal but I hope I have not come over too strong but it p****s me right off the way this has gone!!

Ragscaff
 
T.ANIMAL said:
Hi all, been in touch with Dave Mosley and within 20 mins of sending my email, he had the courtesy of not only emailing me but ringing me up, i have been wrong about him, so would like to put the record straight on that one, the guy seems to be a decent bloke and talks straight and how it is, but not good news is the only downfall to the conversation, have been trying all morning to track the unite guy down over the meeting that they had with Nasc, last week, but no joy, awaiting a call back tomorrow when hes back in the office, i will ask if he can email the information from the meeting rather than do it over the phone, so i dont miss anything, i will post it on here. This is what i received from Dave Mosley and below it is what i sent.
Mr ********

Our scheme is based upon CISRS approved training (CISRS Part 1, 2 Advanced etc), experience (which you undoubtedly have) assessment (VQ) and Health and Safety requirement (CSkills H&S test or exemptions) until this requirement is met we cannot issue a CISRS Scaffolder card.



I do not see grounds for a legal case as our scheme is open to anyone who completes the required criteria.



The ECITB/ECI skills database card has never been recognised by CISRS as it was issued under industry accreditation so as you state we will not transfer your card ECITB like for like with a CISRS card.



This issue has been ongoing for over 10 years when ECITB first proposed withdrawing their Scaffolders card. This was a decision they made of their own volition, with no pressure exerted from NASC or CISRS. We have had many meetings with ECITB and the Unions about this over the years and the decision to continue with the card or withdraw it is entirely up to those parties.



I have attached a Trainee application form, I appreciate it is not what you were hoping for but at least it may help you in getting a job initially and will allow you to work whilst completing your training, should you choose to go down this route.



Regards
Dave Mosley

CISRS

Dear Mr David Mosley,
I am a 42year old scaffolder that finds himself no longer able to gain employment because of the withdrawal of the Ecitb scaffolders card, due to the insistance of Nasc, on everyone having a Cisrs card . There has been a decline in people holding the Ecitb card, hence the withdrawal of them. I agree that our industry needs to be regulated and scaffolders hold the approiate ticket, to be governed in a safe working practice and that Nasc is achieveing this.

I have been in scaffolding since 1997 starting at Dungeness Power Station as a labourer for 2 years, then another 2 years as a trainee/improver being trained under a CITB advanced scaffolder, then on satisfying him and the contracts manager of my competence , they applied for my Ecitb Card Grade 4 Basic in 2001, then another 4 years later was granted my grade 5 Advanced. I had been working with a number of Cisrs Gold card holders, receiving training and experience in all aspects of scaffolding, so their competency is beyond question, regarding the work that I was involved with I can supply testomonials, references and photographic evidence of my work which fulfills your criteria for part 1, part 2 and advanced.


I have worked on, putlog, birdcage, staitic tower, prefabricated beam work, protective fan, loading bays to drawings, roof saddles, hanging scaffold, cantilevered drop, roof edge protection, 2 way/shoring dead, ramp. reading drawings, testings of ties, filling out and understanding RAMS, harnessed trained to SG4:05.


I have worked for Interserve, Cape and Hertel in Power Stations, New Housing Sites and National Grid Sites all over Britain who are Nasc members and some serve on Nasc sub committees, I believe part of being a member that 75% of the workforce need to be Cisrs carded and so after nearly 9 years with Cape and a downturn of work I have been laid off by them, but now things are picking up they are employing Cisrs carded scaffs only , so I feel I have been let down by your organisation ,and one of your members , along with several other scaffolders , who are in there forties with vast experience and training and have been left to rot.


I feel that 13 years of being in the industry more than makes me "competent" not to have to gain entry on the Cisrs card scheme as a trainee, in fact I find it very insulting that a lad can walk off the street and go on a 10 day course, the same as the one you expect me to do.


I know the Working at Height Regulation 2005 that was brought in about training required, experience and competency , well what have I been doing in the 8 years it took me to get my advance ? I had more training, instruction, experience and competency than someone who has had 30 days at college in a 2 year period to obtain their advanced .


I have approached Unite over this and a new organisation, the SCCR who I believe you are aware of, and I am seeking legal advice if there is a case to be answered, into whyi cant be granted a Cisrs card with the qualifications and experience that I hold in order to be able to work.


I know there is not one person, that has appealed and been successful in having a like for like ticket and that is why that I may have to consider going down the legal route to find out why you are stopping me from obtaining work, when I can produce all the proof that in a court of law, may agree that I have received training and experience in 13 years of scaffolding . You dont wake up one morning and your a scaffolder (unlike a Health and Safety consultant) which I believe you dont need a qualification to do . It takes years of learning being taught by someone, is that not training ? I read in your your booklet that your apprenticeships for 16-24, states that most of the training is on site, well whats mine been ?


I hope you will look into my case and any information you require, in getting this matter dealt with successfully. Please do not hesitate to contact me.



I look forward to your prompt reply.


Your sincerely

Mr ********************



Mobile: **********************

THe WAHR 2005 will require those who work at height to be competent, defination of competence as it enables an individual to be assessed relatively easily,
A competent person is a person who can demostrate that they have sufficent professional or technical training, knowledge,actual experience and authority to enable them;
1) carry out their assingned duties at the level of responsibilty allocated to them.
2) understand any potential hazards related to the work (or equipment) under construction.
3) detect any technical defects or omissions in that work, reconise any implication for Health and Safety caused by those defects or omissions and be able to specify a remedial action to mitigate those implications.
I have the following certificates CITB;
2 Day basic Scaffold inspection course,
Risk Assessment course
Fall Arrest Retrieval course,
Harness User and Pre Inspection course
Manuel Handling course,
Then the following courses,
CCNSG Safety Passport,
CSCS Health and Safety,
Besc Health and Safety
Eakring Competent Person National Grid.
and IPAF Scissor Lift and Cherry Picker (Facelift)
Click to expand...

least you have proved Dave Mosley is human, he is probably like the rest of us and works to rules and decisions others make.
 
had 2 phone calls tonight refrence ecitb from a good sourse i was told ecitb takeing cisrs
to court as there fed up of complaints and ecitb scaffolders cant get on course before
2010 so they will lose there scaffold status to work well some ones lying it will all come out in the wash.
 
ragscaff said:
What a load of bull.

If the NASC supported the ECITB guys it would have meant an investment!!

Yet they say they had no part in the removal, yeh right!!

Bet they thought all their Christmas's came at once.

Why do the NASC tell construction companies they can supply qualified scaffolders when their scheme is a record scheme , its a con!!

T.Animal if you want work I will give you work in Wales digs paid, but the NASC & CISRS are a load of con artists.

When I get my act together & the SCCR committee is in full swing we will tackle this head on because its all wrong.

Unite have a lot to answer too & I will be contacting them again over the weekend to try & tackle the deal issue.

Thanks for the info T.Animal but I hope I have not come over too strong but it p****s me right off the way this has gone!!

Ragscaff
Click to expand...

Ragscaff

i'm new to the forum and have been reading this thread with interest. I can understand any scaffs frustration if they didn't choose the CITB route or as in most cases weren't fortunate enough to work for an employer who'd invest in training his men (as i was), so opted for a ECITB card instead. most lads wont take holidays and spend there hard earned cash on training themselves, especially as over the years main contractors/sites weren't that bothered until now.

As far as i'm aware the assessed route was open for years, all the older scaffs i know got there advanced CITB cards on grandfather rights. cisrs, unison or david moseley didn't write the work at height regs (that one came from brussells!!!) shorely ecitb ticket holders are now victims of circumstance.

My old man was given a HGV Class 1 licence on grandfather rights in the 60's but if i now want to work as a lorry driver i would have to pay for training, pass a test (driving and theory). Then when i get to 50 i'd have to have a medical too (don't go there that will be next for scaffolders).

I'm not sure what my point is really and don't want to light the blue touch paper - but don't you feel you're pi$$ing against the wind of change. we can't change the law, if cisrs is the only recognised training scheme then thats what all the big companys will ask for, what option is there unless another training based scheme comes along... i wish you the best of luck with SCCR and will read up more about it (can you point me in the right direction?)
 
Is CISRS the only training scheme that is allowed?

That is the big question.

Seems to be the only that has been allowed.

The scheme is unfair & very poor. So many threads on this site point back to part 2 scaffolders not being able to base out on their own etc.

The industry has been conned into believing that CISRS is the way forward but the NASC has forced it that way. Experiance counts for nothing.

SORRY now I sound like a shop steward :eek:

Lets see what happens in two weeks at our HSE meeting.

As yet CISRS has not offered me a new date for a meeting & the CITB will not engage us yet!! Unions have not come back either, nice to be loved. Govenment next then legal!!

Ragscaff
 
I'm with Ragscaff on this one, I to believe that a deal was done some time ago, the ECTIB decided to withdraw their scaffolders record scheme in return for exclusive rights to the CCNSG safety passoort, leaving NASC with the CISRS as the only data base of Scaffold Achievement.

As this thread unraveled (excuse the pun) it appears that an agreement was made for some sort of shortened training route or assessment for ECITB scaffolders to bring them into the CISRS scheme. This never materialised and in fact the CISRS assessed route was with drawn .

I stated early in this thread that the ECITB sold out their scaffolders buy not including scaffolding in their ACE scheme and awarding NVQs based on on site assessment, its the NVQs that are proof of competence not training based on attendance only .

I still think NVQs hold the key and once again I would erge all scaffolders with NVQs and have been refused entrance to the CISRS at a level appropriate to their NVQs ie Blue scaffolders card NVQ 2 and Gold Advanced card level 3 to contact Ofqual - Home and explain that the CISRS are refusing to recognise your qualifications.

To quote Mr Mosley "I do not see grounds for a legal case as our scheme is open to anyone who completes the required criteria."

Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 may say different if your scheme is refusing to recognise bona fide NVQ qualifications simply because they have been awarded by a body other than Cskills .
 
Thanks for all the ecitb infomation only found out they were withdrawing it today! we have a couple of lads on the company who have that ticket and i will be passing on the addy to this site.
 
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