Supervisors? Managers? Bosses? - are you willing to take the fall??

Will you take the fall??

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
J

Jason-Gibbs

Guest
Morning chaps.

A quick vote.
Like the thread Fred (Freds thread?? :toung:), made up about competency. Heres another.

There are plenty of Supervisors and such the like here... i think theres more here then actual Scaffolders.
This also aint a dig at blokes without cards, i frankly dont give a monkies who has or hasn't got tickets... i have, thats all i care about.
I dont wanna see anyone out of work either.

Its an honest question.
Q: Are you willing as a Supervisor, to go to prison or be prosecuted by the HSE should an accident happen to one of your men who is under/unqualified for the task hes set?

The HSE will ultimately bust your arse, should anything happen.
This is NOT about competency or being a 'good lad' this is put your money where your mouth is and give a straight answer... :suspicious:

Yes or No?
 
Would you let an unqualified surgeon perform surgery on you?

What about if that surgeon told you 'they'd been in the surgery game 20 years' under the supervision of 'experienced' surgeons (who nobody knows if they've received any training)

Answer no to both questions? Then why would anyone allow an untrained scaffolder to carry out complex and dangerous tasks?

If anyone is stupid enough to put an untrained person in a position of competence and danger then they are probably stupid enough not to realise the consequences if something went tits-up.
 
Thread finished not much more an be added to that......move on....
 
Well the poll is open for another 365 days... lets see the outcome.
To be rather frank, im pig sick of reading lies.

Lets see who thinks what?
Lets see some more: "i dont care about tickets, scaffolders can either do the job or not" boll.ox.

Starting trouble? course, if being truthful and honest is indeed causing trouble.
The Scaffolders i remember used to actually speak their mind - REAL SCAFFOLDERS.

Unlike most of the knobs on this Forum.
 
I certainly wouldn't put an untrained scaffolder or an incompetent qualified scaffolder on a task he is not qualified or competent to perform.
My point which some seem to be missing is that competency requires training. Assessed route scaffolders did not receive training only an assessment. I am calling into question the powers that be that set the so called standards not the ability of the men concerned. All my men here have received scaffolding training by a recognised training institute that is approved by the project. They have not just been assessed.

I won't vote in the poll because the option of not putting an unqualified or incompetent scaffolder on work he is not trained or competent to perform is not given.
 
A fully carded and trained workforce is here to stay and is the future of our industry, like it or not, no card/qualification = no work.
The CISRS needs a total overhaul as it fails in a lot of areas, but it is our industry's only qualification scheme, so we are stuck with it.
 
Tom Lard said:
A fully carded and trained workforce is here to stay and is the future of our industry, like it or not, no card/qualification = no work.
The CISRS needs a total overhaul as it fails in a lot of areas, but it is our industry's only qualification scheme, so we are stuck with it.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately they are hand in glove with NASC etc so would be difficult for others to start up and not be affiliated with them. Trident did it in the 80s I think but failed without the backing.
 
So your unwilling to comment Fred? Thats a surprise...
Exactly where? would you place an un or under-qualified Scaffolder?? In the yard?

Im honestly not trying to say that Scaffolders without tickets are shiite... i cant comment.
Tickets DONT make the Scaffolder, just makes him legit in the eyes of the law.

Where would you put him Fred?? In all your apparent extensive experience as a Manager.
Remember this is about ENGLISH Scaffolders, not Indians working 18 hour days for £3 a day - the kind your used to...
 
Jason-Gibbs said:
So your unwilling to comment Fred? Thats a surprise...
Exactly where? would you place an un or under-qualified Scaffolder?? In the yard?

Im honestly not trying to say that Scaffolders without tickets are shiite... i cant comment.
Tickets DONT make the Scaffolder, just makes him legit in the eyes of the law.

Where would you put him Fred?? In all your apparent extensive experience as a Manager.
Remember this is about ENGLISH Scaffolders, not Indians working 18 hour days for £3 a day - the kind your used to...
Click to expand...

Read my post I said I am unwilling to vote as the question is worded wrongly in my opinion.
As I have said before there is nothing legal about the matter. The WAH regs only require competency. Competency requires training. Assessed route did not include training. The assessed route was abandoned by CISRS in 2006 when they realized it did not comply with WAH regs.
I would not put an incompetent scaffolder on any job. They must be competent or deemed competent under whatever regulations I am working under at the time.CISRS is a "preferred" qualification not a legal requirement.Read their own statement.
This is about British scaffolders and their governing bodies.
I have managed scaffolders from many different nationalities including those in Australia who also had to have had the necessary training to be deemed competent and who were paid money you could only dream about.
Please don't get so defensive Jason. This is not about you. It is about the CISRS and their influential supporters who have made the criteria for accquiring competency but do not adhere to it.
Your comment about "apparent extensive experience" has been noted!!!

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------
phil181 said:
Would you let an unqualified surgeon perform surgery on you?

What about if that surgeon told you 'they'd been in the surgery game 20 years' under the supervision of 'experienced' surgeons (who nobody knows if they've received any training)

Answer no to both questions? Then why would anyone allow an untrained scaffolder to carry out complex and dangerous tasks?

If anyone is stupid enough to put an untrained person in a position of competence and danger then they are probably stupid enough not to realise the consequences if something went tits-up.
Click to expand...

What about if the surgeon said "I didnt attend medical school or receive any training but I filled in a questionnaire about some operations I have done in the past few years. I then went to Guys hospital on a weekend and did a couple of operations and I was assessed by a former surgeon who said i was ok."
 
Havespannerwilltravel said:
Read my post I said I am unwilling to vote as the question is worded wrongly in my opinion.
As I have said before there is nothing legal about the matter. The WAH regs only require competency. Competency requires training. Assessed route did not include training. The assessed route was abandoned by CISRS in 2006 when they realized it did not comply with WAH regs.
I would not put an incompetent scaffolder on any job. They must be competent or deemed competent under whatever regulations I am working under at the time.CISRS is a "preferred" qualification not a legal requirement.Read their own statement.
This is about British scaffolders and their governing bodies.
I have managed scaffolders from many different nationalities including those in Australia who also had to have had the necessary training to be deemed competent and who were paid money you could only dream about.
Please don't get so defensive Jason. This is not about you. It is about the CISRS and their influential supporters who have made the criteria for accquiring competency but do not adhere to it.
Your comment about "apparent extensive experience" has been noted!!!
Click to expand...

it could be argued what training is , is training an advanced scaffolder telling you how to do it in a class room or is training an advanced scaffolder telling you it on the job ??? for eg had to alter a scaffolding in the center there was 3 or 4 interdependents 4ft apart to alter them we put datums between them and a few more braces. is it easy as that on site no ?, when you got football training rugby training do you go to a centre to train or is it out in the feild wid the lads it might not be the word competency but training if that makes sense
 
'Note' all you want Fred... you DONT pay my wages. Nor will you ever.
This is an honest question and your deliberately avoiding answering it.
Making quips about Algeria every 5 minutes and my MY videos all the time is water off a ducks back to me.

As a man on the ground grafting on the Spanners i have to work with morons day and night and they all have various tickets, what can i do?? Nothing, as legally they are covered.
But you keep going on about putting uncarded men to work. I LOVE for us all to be in good jobs earning, but Scaffolding is hard.

I know... im just about to go back out, off my break and start again.
Im not lucky enough to be sitting inba nice a/c'd office pointing fingers and getting Indians to work themselves to death, so certain people get a nice bonus.

If your not willing to back up your statements dont answer them in the f.ucking first place!!
 
Jason-Gibbs said:
'Note' all you want Fred... you DONT pay my wages. Nor will you ever.
This is an honest question and your deliberately avoiding answering it.
Making quips about Algeria every 5 minutes and my MY videos all the time is water off a ducks back to me.

As a man on the ground grafting on the Spanners i have to work with morons day and night and they all have various tickets, what can i do?? Nothing, as legally they are covered.
But you keep going on about putting uncarded men to work. I LOVE for us all to be in good jobs earning, but Scaffolding is hard.

I know... im just about to go back out, off my break and start again.
Im not lucky enough to be sitting inba nice a/c'd office pointing fingers and getting Indians to work themselves to death, so certain people get a nice bonus.

If your not willing to back up your statements dont answer them in the f.ucking first place!!
Click to expand...

But I LIKE working Indians to death :(
 
Jason-Gibbs said:
'Note' all you want Fred... you DONT pay my wages. Nor will you ever.
This is an honest question and your deliberately avoiding answering it.
Making quips about Algeria every 5 minutes and my MY videos all the time is water off a ducks back to me.

As a man on the ground grafting on the Spanners i have to work with morons day and night and they all have various tickets, what can i do?? Nothing, as legally they are covered.
But you keep going on about putting uncarded men to work. I LOVE for us all to be in good jobs earning, but Scaffolding is hard.

I know... im just about to go back out, off my break and start again.
Im not lucky enough to be sitting inba nice a/c'd office pointing fingers and getting Indians to work themselves to death, so certain people get a nice bonus.If your not willing to back up your statements dont answer them in the f.ucking first place!!
Click to expand...

I have already answered your question without having to resort to bad language. As I have said previously I would not put an incompetent man on a job he wasn't competent to do in the first place so I would never be in a place to take the fall. I am however in the position of having to take the fall on a daily basis as although my employees have had the required training,experience etc and are considered competent to perform their duties if something does go wrong the expat is the first person the police put in jail!!
I have not said put uncarded men to work I have always mentioned competency which again requires training.
I dont actually employ Indians although I have done in the past. Working them to death is frowned upon as a fatality does not look good on the daily reports.
I did actually spend over 20 years on the spanners so get off your high horse. Scaffolding is as hard or as easy as you make it.
Enjoy your afternoon I am at home already.Luck has nothing to do with it!!
 
good question jay,i think the managers\supervisors would give a generic pc answer to this all day long that they wouldnt put an incompetant,untrained operative into a position they wernt trained to do.....but it happens all day every day all over the shop.
 
Havespannerwilltravel said:
I have already answered your question without having to resort to bad language. As I have said previously I would not put an incompetent man on a job he wasn't competent to do in the first place so I would never be in a place to take the fall. I am however in the position of having to take the fall on a daily basis as although my employees have had the required training,experience etc and are considered competent to perform their duties if something does go wrong the expat is the first person the police put in jail!!
I have not said put uncarded men to work I have always mentioned competency which again requires training.
I dont actually employ Indians although I have done in the past. Working them to death is frowned upon as a fatality does not look good on the daily reports.
I did actually spend over 20 years on the spanners so get off your high horse. Scaffolding is as hard or as easy as you make it.
Enjoy your afternoon I am at home already.Luck has nothing to do with it!!
Click to expand...

Fine... you obviously wont answer the question... im not arguing anymore.
F.uck this Forum. Its full of w@nkers.
 
We all know the training starts after the cards are issued not before.

---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

Chill Jasie Babe!!
 
Jason-Gibbs said:
Fine... you obviously wont answer the question... im not arguing anymore.
F.uck this Forum. Its full of w@nkers.
Click to expand...

This is not an arguement its an interesting debate. No need to call forum members w@nkers its not big and its not clever.
Please explain exactly what question you would like me to answer Jason and I will do my utmost to oblige.
And as for paying Indians 3 pound an hour to work 18 hour days you are revealing your ignorance of overseas work and the gulf region in particular.
We only employ Nepalese who are trained, competent and who are approved by both a recognised training establishment and some of the world's major EPCM companies.
These Nepalese work a standard 48 hour week and are paid just under one pound fifty an hour. This is approximately 4 times what they would earn at home. Anything over 48 hours is voluntary overtime and paid at an enhanced rate. Digs, food and travel are provided. Cape for example employ Indians and pay them half what we pay our guys.
Anyway please let me know the question and don't spit the dummy out again and leave. Its just not British.
 
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The old addage of u do the crime u do the time spings to mind.
Although whilst saying that there are times when u have no choice otherwise how would anyone learn....there comes a time that u have to give ur labour or trainnee the chance to progress but always supervised...but nothing too technical as we have guys with A tckts for that.
I would never put a workers life over profit & if i did i'd deserve to go to jail...nonne who works for us is detailef work out of his ability or skillset as its just not practical to do so....the job would take far too long.
There you go jason cant be anymore honest then that
 
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