if not tg20 then what

So I can do a simple drawing for a 4m span on a 3 lift independent with myself without an engineer?
 
Ah ha now we have a wee bit of clarification,the tg20 is not the be all and end all.
I would also agree that you can build whatever the feck you want,as long as it is within reason,and any real complex jobs really only warrant a drawing so that you the scaffold company have reassurance if the scaffold fails due to overloading,high winds or whatever.
Cheers otto
 
I think that's true Daftscaff but what he failed to let you know they will hang you out to dry in the event of an incident and it's not to TG20.

I have said it before but I feel the regs are more to make it a simpler process to apportion blame on individuals rather than keeping men safe.
 
of course it is they want a name in the register,they want a name on the card they want a name on the drawing.
sad but true weres theres a name theres blame
 
Is that fair comment Otto or more hot air?
 
Hope you two are enjoying "trading views" 8000 members and its more like a private conversation. I'm on the edges trying to get involved but the family are over disrupting my involvement.
I do believe no other trade is bullied and shoved around like scaffs,hence a big sccr awareness should be pushed.
Oh no!!! sorry lads ..match of the day is on.
 
You are out numbered tonight Frederik, nae fitbaw till the morra. Depending on result will dictate if either myself and Daftscaff will be here tomorrow.
 
If you are competent to produce designs and calculations and you have them to hand when the scaffold is being erected - then go for it - TG20 is recognised by the HSE as being a "recognised standard configuration" as is BS12811 - build it to that or demonstrate that you have the competence to do the calculations and design yourself.

Be aware that if it falls down, HSE have some very good structural engineers - who can present a technical case in court - it's your shout though.

All the best

Otto :cool:
 
Morning Aom,good luck today,Gers being my 2nd team, Strange how Chels and Gers fans have this alliance. We got them nasty reds today,
 
Cheers Frederik, I know what you mean I always found it strange myself hearing a London accent standing behind me chanting "Chelsea" at Ibrox. Anyway, 2 good games that could go either way, don't know about you but I'm looking for some old fashioned football all blood and thunder to give us something to shout about. Gave up my season ticket, just fancied a year off but looking forward to just sitting in the house watching for a change although there are a few of the boy's heading to the pub and I might join them.:idea:
 
If by "idividuals" you mean companies - it's very rare to prosecute individuals - although the WAH regs make this possible along with CDM as well. The idea of any law is to hold people to account - so that is actually the purpose of any law.

If HSE were to go after individuals it is more likely to be done under HASAW - the penalties are more severe now it includes imprisonment.

I can understand fully the issues raised in this post with experienced scaffs asking why they have to build to TG20 - they don't - but they do have to comply with the law - the WAH Regs specifically - TG20 is just a benchmark that HSE use to measre you against if it is a basic scaffold. If it is not a basic scaffold it needs some kind of design input. If not then BS12811 - if you can interpret it...

This is the standard that HSE expect all scaffolding firms to work to:

Construction - Scaffolding - Scaffold tower industry health & safety

Too much to stick in the post/thread - sorry

Bear in mind that there are a lot of types of scaffold in that list that require design input. It can be a "generic" design - such as for loading bays but it doen't stop it being needed.

At the end of the day what you guys do is down to you. Experience on its own doesn't make competence - neither does training, there are a lot of other things involved like skill appitude and knowledge.

What makes someone truly competent however - in my view - is knowing when you are not, i.e. you know your limits.

Good luck with the footy - hope your teams win.

All the best

Otto:cool:
 
Thanks otto, very informative post. So much speculation and uncertainty. The Sccr are trying to clarify practises and understanding. Seems we all interprete differently.
Belatedly...welcome to the forum.
 
Thanks for the link Otto, very useful but the UK has gone overboard on the "basic" scaffold part............working in the gulf....have an engineer available if required but i must admit I do not request designs with calcs for all that is listed on the HSE web site......erecting a cantilever truss out, with 2 working platforms to install a cable tray.............I know for a fact that the design we have done is more than capable of supporting the load for its purpose.....in this, my experience has payed off and the fact it is outside the UK we can do it.................yes I except my responibilty and care of the men using the scaffold. Oh yeah the client is a jingly and doesnt know what he is looking at, however I dont take advantage of this, I still erect safe suitable access fit for purpose.
 
Thanks again for that Otto, pretty much what I thought to be honest and our local HSE inspector was good enough to send that list to all scaffold companies in our area a couple of years ago now. It's obviously still a bit of an issue though and I know myself if most of the structures were that basic most clients would just erect them on their own and not pay me to do it. It will of course become just normal practise but will take a bit of time for 100% compliance, we seem to spend more money and effort proving the jobs are within TG:20 or even with our system following manufacturers guide lines.

Another problem is when we originally build the jobs we run them through the CADS to prove they comply which is fine but then halfway through the job they want a beam in to bridge a new door or whatever and I feel like a right plum telling them they need an engineer to approve it.

Oh well Rome was not built in a day but then Philiosmaximus wasn't on the job.

Footy a bit in the air but a better game than has been in the past.:bigsmile:
 
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