Second get out: Feck off you will need to spend more than the claim is worth to chase us through the courts.
if not tg20 then what
- Thread starter daftscaff
- Start date
Second get out: Feck off you will need to spend more than the claim is worth to chase us through the courts.
happyhugenoet
Well-known member
THE CANS ARE KICKING IN AOM,I WAS UNDER THE PRESUMTION THAT ALL MOT INSPECTORS ARE MECHANICS.
THE OTHER FECK UP WAS SCAFFTAGS ARE A LEGAL DOCUMENT NOT REQUIREMENT AS I SLURRED:amazed:
ONLY A SCAFFOLDER SHOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT SCAFFOLD INSPECTIONS IS BASICALLY WHAT I MEANT.
THAT AND THE FACT THAT WHOEVER PUTS PEN TO PAPER ON THE HANDOVER CERT OR ANY SCAFFTAG/INSPECTION CERTS WILL CARRY THE CAN FOR ANY **** THAT COMES ONTOP
THE OTHER FECK UP WAS SCAFFTAGS ARE A LEGAL DOCUMENT NOT REQUIREMENT AS I SLURRED:amazed:
ONLY A SCAFFOLDER SHOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT SCAFFOLD INSPECTIONS IS BASICALLY WHAT I MEANT.
THAT AND THE FACT THAT WHOEVER PUTS PEN TO PAPER ON THE HANDOVER CERT OR ANY SCAFFTAG/INSPECTION CERTS WILL CARRY THE CAN FOR ANY **** THAT COMES ONTOP
geoffbecks
Well-known member
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Ah you used the MONEY word thats where it all ends...whats right and wrong goes out the window when that comes into it...I would love to see third party inspectore let loose but the costs would stop it before it began....
Garry Adams
Well-known member
aom
Both---it common practice to have 3 rd Party to cross reference Scaffold Structures and Audits, Method Statements RA's ect ect
Focus on the Training side---its the Client who drives the Appointment of 3 rd Party---I can only speak for the Oil and Gas Sector...
Both---it common practice to have 3 rd Party to cross reference Scaffold Structures and Audits, Method Statements RA's ect ect
Focus on the Training side---its the Client who drives the Appointment of 3 rd Party---I can only speak for the Oil and Gas Sector...
I can only speak for the Oil and Gas Sector...
Don't think it should really matter what sector you are in, I have seen as you will have loads of guff jobs in all sectors but you're right as I can really only talk of a very small limited experience. Which is all fur coat and no knickers, worried about daft stuff and not enough experience to notice obvious structural weakness.
Don't think it should really matter what sector you are in, I have seen as you will have loads of guff jobs in all sectors but you're right as I can really only talk of a very small limited experience. Which is all fur coat and no knickers, worried about daft stuff and not enough experience to notice obvious structural weakness.
happyhugenoet
Well-known member
Im friends with yous all im a happy guy,i love my job sad bit true and this is a forum for discussion.geoff and garry are both right.
I dont agree with the scaffolders inspection course that lets a site agent put a tag on a job,i was on a job tail end of last year and seen this being being abused because the foreman scaff was off(the job wasnt safe).
Welding inspectors are generally from a welding background why because it makes sense when you move away from the discipline then i say you loose credibillity
I dont agree with the scaffolders inspection course that lets a site agent put a tag on a job,i was on a job tail end of last year and seen this being being abused because the foreman scaff was off(the job wasnt safe).
Welding inspectors are generally from a welding background why because it makes sense when you move away from the discipline then i say you loose credibillity
Im pretty sure a site manager cant tag a job Happy.
Only the erecting scaff can do that. Site managers dont want to delay works by holding trades up. It is part of his duty to ensure saftey for all on site.
As this debate proves. We all agree to dis agree ,There is far too much uncertainty and grey area's in this industry.
This whole business is what led to the SCCR being formed.
Only the erecting scaff can do that. Site managers dont want to delay works by holding trades up. It is part of his duty to ensure saftey for all on site.
As this debate proves. We all agree to dis agree ,There is far too much uncertainty and grey area's in this industry.
This whole business is what led to the SCCR being formed.
general manager
Moderator
Agreed site managers cannot tag a newly erected scaffold but they can do the weekly inspection if they have passed the scaffold inspection course. We offer every client the option of doing a weekly inspection for them after the initial handover certificate is signed off by the supervisor/contracts manager, but on the whole we get told they will inspect the scaffolding themselves.
bluescaff
Active member
Read this thread with interest.... I always believed any competent person was deemed acceptable to tag a job (competence shown by CISRS card or otherwise) although some individual company policy insists on 3rd party inspection (in-house or otherwise) so scaffold erectors are not signing off their own work. I have argued this point so many times in the back of many vans/site cabins until sounding like a jobs worth c***. A site agent with an inspection ticket would be able to pull a tag on a job if it failed inspection or sign it off for another week, but not able to tag it in the first place? Seems like a contradiction. But i don’t think we need inspectors without relevant experience/credible authority signing jobs? Dangerous territory as agents would often be tagging unsuitable jobs to push their schedule through & pulling tags when it suited their management games. Although at lest the liability would fall to the main contractor not the scaffolding company?
Surly from a a legal standpoint the only clear cut solution is independent 3rd party inspection by persons who have no vested interest in the status of the scaffold other than from a safety point of view, how practical is that?
I think the difference between legal requirements and best practice should be stated better in training for a start and help bring forward an organisation the positively oppose/rival the NASC who don’t have an interest in monopolising their neish in the industry. SCCR all the way.
Thats my post for the month, back in Oct
Surly from a a legal standpoint the only clear cut solution is independent 3rd party inspection by persons who have no vested interest in the status of the scaffold other than from a safety point of view, how practical is that?
I think the difference between legal requirements and best practice should be stated better in training for a start and help bring forward an organisation the positively oppose/rival the NASC who don’t have an interest in monopolising their neish in the industry. SCCR all the way.
Thats my post for the month, back in Oct
Garry Adams
Well-known member
Where the initial handover Cert and the Scaffold has been commissioned by the Scaffold Inspector and thereafter too be re-commissioned by the Client's two Day " Scaffold Inspection Nominated Person " is indeed a contradiction and an absurd method of conduction a Scaffolding Safety Management System.
With the blatant increase of unauthorized removal of component parts---modifications ( hop up brackets ect ) and storm damage just to mention a few instances where the original configuration of the Scaffold may occur---how can a two day Inspection Course prepare a Site Agent, Manager ect with the practical and theoretical expertise require to identify patient defects and omissions---furthermore, is it morally right to expect these people to accept such a heavy responsibility ???
With the blatant increase of unauthorized removal of component parts---modifications ( hop up brackets ect ) and storm damage just to mention a few instances where the original configuration of the Scaffold may occur---how can a two day Inspection Course prepare a Site Agent, Manager ect with the practical and theoretical expertise require to identify patient defects and omissions---furthermore, is it morally right to expect these people to accept such a heavy responsibility ???
Gary, you have just described one of my jobs at the moment, we hand it over and take pictures then the site agent fixed his own tag. I could be a mile wide of the mark but why cant a 2 day inspector do this? A tag is just part of the quality control on site to let everyone who uses a scaffold Know that inspections are being carried out, and even then that does not stop the users responsibility to carry out their own daily inspections.
You can lead a horse to water and all that but if the client wants to do his own inspections with his own tagging system I don't think he is doing anything wrong and I am up the road earning on another site.
You can lead a horse to water and all that but if the client wants to do his own inspections with his own tagging system I don't think he is doing anything wrong and I am up the road earning on another site.
your monthly post was a belter blue.i have also seen tags been put on jobs by the manager of a brickie firm i worked for and also a concrete outfit.
the concrete outfit were a fecking disgrace they would tie jacls to the bottom of the standards and then lift the scaffold with the crane to another location.when i expressed my concern that i couldnt be sure what sort of stresses the job had taken in the movement and the banging into place.
i told them i wouldnt be signing anymore tags and it was all downhill from then on.
the concrete outfit were a fecking disgrace they would tie jacls to the bottom of the standards and then lift the scaffold with the crane to another location.when i expressed my concern that i couldnt be sure what sort of stresses the job had taken in the movement and the banging into place.
i told them i wouldnt be signing anymore tags and it was all downhill from then on.
aom
The option of the Client taking ownership of the responsibility of Statutory Inspections post commissioning and hand over it agreeable and would release you from non-productive lost time. Be it on their own head if an incident happens...
The option of the Client taking ownership of the responsibility of Statutory Inspections post commissioning and hand over it agreeable and would release you from non-productive lost time. Be it on their own head if an incident happens...
philliosmaximus
Moderator
Its not compulsory to tag any job , and if the main contractor insist on us doing it we charge them , but they can quite legally have the 7 day inspections done by who ever they like , it only states a "competent person "must inspect it , whether the site manager is competent or not is not your problem , just hand the job over and if they insist you do the 7 day check then charge them for it .
general manager
Moderator
Its not compulsory to tag any job , and if the main contractor insist on us doing it we charge them , but they can quite legally have the 7 day inspections done by who ever they like , it only states a "competent person "must inspect it , whether the site manager is competent or not is not your problem , just hand the job over and if they insist you do the 7 day check then charge them for it .
Its the charging bit Phil that causes the problem, they [the client] expect the scaffolding company to swallow the costs and do it for fxxk all, then they come out with the old potato we have more work in the pipeline and you scratch or back etc :amazed::amazed:
philliosmaximus
Moderator
No way GM we charge them £30 an hour if want it , but the stupid thing in my opinion is we then charge them to do remedial work, handrails toe boards been moved and the like as we have to condemn our own job as other trades have moved stuff since the last inspection there aint no further work in my mind only the job thats here and now
Hi Gents,
Just to clarify:
The law regarding scaffolding erection standards:
Work at Height Regulations 2005 - Regulation 8(b)
8. Every employer shall ensure that, in the case of—
(a)a guard-rail, toe-board, barrier or similar collective means of protection, Schedule 2 is complied with;.
(b)a working platform—
(i)Part 1 of Schedule 3 is complied with; and.
(ii)where scaffolding is provided, Part 2 of Schedule 3 is also complied with;.
Schedule 3 - Additional Requirements for Scaffolding
7. Strength and stability calculations for scaffolding shall be carried out unless—
(a)a note of the calculations, covering the structural arrangements contemplated, is available; or.
(b)it is assembled in conformity with a generally recognised standard configuration.. (TG20 or BS12811 - my italics)
8. Depending on the complexity of the scaffolding selected, an assembly, use and dismantling plan shall be drawn up by a competent person. This may be in the form of a standard plan, supplemented by items relating to specific details of the scaffolding in question. (you need a method statement...)
9. A copy of the plan, including any instructions it may contain, shall be kept available for the use of persons concerned in the assembly, use, dismantling or alteration of scaffolding until it has been dismantled. (i.e. - you need to have a site specific method statement with you whilst chucking up the scaffold - my italics)
10. The dimensions, form and layout of scaffolding decks shall be appropriate to the nature of the work to be performed and suitable for the loads to be carried and permit work and passage in safety.
11. While a scaffold is not available for use, including during its assembly, dismantling or alteration, it shall be marked with general warning signs in accordance with the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996(1) and be suitably delineated by physical means preventing access to the danger zone.
12. Scaffolding may be assembled, dismantled or significantly altered only under the supervision of a competent person and by persons who have received appropriate and specific training in the operations envisaged which addresses specific risks which the operations may entail and precautions to be taken, and more particularly in—
(a)understanding of the plan for the assembly, dismantling or alteration of the scaffolding concerned;.
(b)safety during the assembly, dismantling or alteration of the scaffolding concerned;.
(c)measures to prevent the risk of persons, materials or objects falling;.
(d)safety measures in the event of changing weather conditions which could adversely affect the safety of the scaffolding concerned;.
(e)permissible loadings;.
(f)any other risks which the assembly, dismantling or alteration of the scaffolding may entail..
My emphasis on the bold
Regulation 12 covers the requirements for inspection - summarised below:
12.—(1) This regulation applies only to work equipment to which regulation 8 and Schedules 2 to 6 apply.
(2) Every employer shall ensure that, where the safety of work equipment depends on how it is installed or assembled, it is not used after installation or assembly in any position unless it has been inspected in that position.
(3) Every employer shall ensure that work equipment exposed to conditions causing deterioration which is liable to result in dangerous situations is inspected—
(a)at suitable intervals; and.
(b)each time that exceptional circumstances which are liable to jeopardise the safety of the work equipment have occurred,.to ensure that health and safety conditions are maintained and that any deterioration can be detected and remedied in good time.
(4) Without prejudice to paragraph (2), every employer shall ensure that a working platform—
(a)used for construction work; and.
(b)from which a person could fall 2 metres or more,.
is not used in any position unless it has been inspected in that position or, in the case of a mobile working platform, inspected on the site, within the previous 7 days.
(7) A person carrying out an inspection of work equipment to which paragraph (4) applies shall—
(a)before the end of the working period within which the inspection is completed, prepare a report containing the particulars set out in Schedule 7; and.
(b)within 24 hours of completing the inspection, provide the report or a copy thereof to the person on whose behalf the inspection was carried out..
(8) An employer receiving a report or copy under paragraph (7) shall keep the report or a copy thereof—
(a)at the site where the inspection was carried out until the construction work is completed; and.
(b)thereafter at an office of his for 3 months. - so no scafftags - registers only
(10) In this regulation“inspection”, subject to paragraph (9)—
(a)means such visual or more rigorous inspection by a competent person as is appropriate for safety purposes;.
(b)includes any testing appropriate for those purposes,.
and “inspected” shall be construed accordingly.
My emphasis on the bold and italics - all the law you need to know is in the Work at Height Regulations and this is the standard that HSE will measure you against if they have to.
Hope this makes things clear
All the best
Otto
Just to clarify:
The law regarding scaffolding erection standards:
Work at Height Regulations 2005 - Regulation 8(b)
8. Every employer shall ensure that, in the case of—
(a)a guard-rail, toe-board, barrier or similar collective means of protection, Schedule 2 is complied with;.
(b)a working platform—
(i)Part 1 of Schedule 3 is complied with; and.
(ii)where scaffolding is provided, Part 2 of Schedule 3 is also complied with;.
Schedule 3 - Additional Requirements for Scaffolding
7. Strength and stability calculations for scaffolding shall be carried out unless—
(a)a note of the calculations, covering the structural arrangements contemplated, is available; or.
(b)it is assembled in conformity with a generally recognised standard configuration.. (TG20 or BS12811 - my italics)
8. Depending on the complexity of the scaffolding selected, an assembly, use and dismantling plan shall be drawn up by a competent person. This may be in the form of a standard plan, supplemented by items relating to specific details of the scaffolding in question. (you need a method statement...)
9. A copy of the plan, including any instructions it may contain, shall be kept available for the use of persons concerned in the assembly, use, dismantling or alteration of scaffolding until it has been dismantled. (i.e. - you need to have a site specific method statement with you whilst chucking up the scaffold - my italics)
10. The dimensions, form and layout of scaffolding decks shall be appropriate to the nature of the work to be performed and suitable for the loads to be carried and permit work and passage in safety.
11. While a scaffold is not available for use, including during its assembly, dismantling or alteration, it shall be marked with general warning signs in accordance with the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996(1) and be suitably delineated by physical means preventing access to the danger zone.
12. Scaffolding may be assembled, dismantled or significantly altered only under the supervision of a competent person and by persons who have received appropriate and specific training in the operations envisaged which addresses specific risks which the operations may entail and precautions to be taken, and more particularly in—
(a)understanding of the plan for the assembly, dismantling or alteration of the scaffolding concerned;.
(b)safety during the assembly, dismantling or alteration of the scaffolding concerned;.
(c)measures to prevent the risk of persons, materials or objects falling;.
(d)safety measures in the event of changing weather conditions which could adversely affect the safety of the scaffolding concerned;.
(e)permissible loadings;.
(f)any other risks which the assembly, dismantling or alteration of the scaffolding may entail..
My emphasis on the bold
Regulation 12 covers the requirements for inspection - summarised below:
12.—(1) This regulation applies only to work equipment to which regulation 8 and Schedules 2 to 6 apply.
(2) Every employer shall ensure that, where the safety of work equipment depends on how it is installed or assembled, it is not used after installation or assembly in any position unless it has been inspected in that position.
(3) Every employer shall ensure that work equipment exposed to conditions causing deterioration which is liable to result in dangerous situations is inspected—
(a)at suitable intervals; and.
(b)each time that exceptional circumstances which are liable to jeopardise the safety of the work equipment have occurred,.to ensure that health and safety conditions are maintained and that any deterioration can be detected and remedied in good time.
(4) Without prejudice to paragraph (2), every employer shall ensure that a working platform—
(a)used for construction work; and.
(b)from which a person could fall 2 metres or more,.
is not used in any position unless it has been inspected in that position or, in the case of a mobile working platform, inspected on the site, within the previous 7 days.
(7) A person carrying out an inspection of work equipment to which paragraph (4) applies shall—
(a)before the end of the working period within which the inspection is completed, prepare a report containing the particulars set out in Schedule 7; and.
(b)within 24 hours of completing the inspection, provide the report or a copy thereof to the person on whose behalf the inspection was carried out..
(8) An employer receiving a report or copy under paragraph (7) shall keep the report or a copy thereof—
(a)at the site where the inspection was carried out until the construction work is completed; and.
(b)thereafter at an office of his for 3 months. - so no scafftags - registers only
(10) In this regulation“inspection”, subject to paragraph (9)—
(a)means such visual or more rigorous inspection by a competent person as is appropriate for safety purposes;.
(b)includes any testing appropriate for those purposes,.
and “inspected” shall be construed accordingly.
My emphasis on the bold and italics - all the law you need to know is in the Work at Height Regulations and this is the standard that HSE will measure you against if they have to.
Hope this makes things clear
All the best
Otto