celticbhoy
Moderator
poorly mate i would assume thats why i think theses ideas today would be of such benifit to them and us,only time will tell.
HSE to close offices
- Thread starter simian
- Start date
Garry Adams
Well-known member
Yet the RIDDOR Regs are there to record and collate data so as to put mechanisms in place to stop re-occurrences, remedial and corrective proactive strategies... Yet, at a recent HSE Meeting they stated that unautherised removal of ties was NOT a reportable incident---CRASY given that this plactice is a pre courser to partial and complete collapses, these are the issues that the SCCR are trying to resolve...with your ( EVERYONES) help we shall make a difference...
Just a couple of points to mention boy's, small can be beautiful. I'm not doing it as best as I can but by the book, the gears tip top the yard is tip top the vehicles are tip top(well, maybe the forklift has seen better days) the rams are all in place basic designs and TG20 reports are flying out this office like confetti and the quality of jobs are second to none. I'm not blowing my own trumpet and I certainly don't want to tempt fate(touch wood) but it does get tiresome defending the smaller outfits.
Gary,
There has been a few developments on the hse since the last time we spoke on the forum. I'm not saying they are wired in to the forum or anything but not too long after our discussion and posting these pictures on here Mr Hse gave us a visit. He closed a couple of jobs in the area and we gleaned a substantial amount of work from his presence. He contacted the local training group and set up a meeting with practically all who operate in the construction industry here and well and truly marked their card for them to what he expects to see on his next visit, again we picked up a bit more work after that little speech. I know not everyone has had the same experience in their own areas as I have but I would call it a positive outcome as long as he backs up what he says in future visits.
Gary,
There has been a few developments on the hse since the last time we spoke on the forum. I'm not saying they are wired in to the forum or anything but not too long after our discussion and posting these pictures on here Mr Hse gave us a visit. He closed a couple of jobs in the area and we gleaned a substantial amount of work from his presence. He contacted the local training group and set up a meeting with practically all who operate in the construction industry here and well and truly marked their card for them to what he expects to see on his next visit, again we picked up a bit more work after that little speech. I know not everyone has had the same experience in their own areas as I have but I would call it a positive outcome as long as he backs up what he says in future visits.
Garry Adams
Well-known member
aom
Right glad I am to hear that your Regional H&S Inspector is on the job---as I have mentioned I would not like to see the H&S Inspectors resources to be diluted, nor the introduction of out-souring the H&S Inspectors remit to 3 rd Party Organisations, rather, it would be more pro-active for the Industry to collaborate with the H&SE...it would make life better if ALL Regions could adopt the working model and practices within your region...Your initiative in contacting and nurturing a working relationship with your Local H&S Inspectorate is the way forward. For this to work on a National Scale BOTH the H&SE and Scaffolding Operators will have to communique on a more regular basis, with mutual respect and understanding being the corner stone to build upon...what do we have to move forward ?...
Garry...
Right glad I am to hear that your Regional H&S Inspector is on the job---as I have mentioned I would not like to see the H&S Inspectors resources to be diluted, nor the introduction of out-souring the H&S Inspectors remit to 3 rd Party Organisations, rather, it would be more pro-active for the Industry to collaborate with the H&SE...it would make life better if ALL Regions could adopt the working model and practices within your region...Your initiative in contacting and nurturing a working relationship with your Local H&S Inspectorate is the way forward. For this to work on a National Scale BOTH the H&SE and Scaffolding Operators will have to communique on a more regular basis, with mutual respect and understanding being the corner stone to build upon...what do we have to move forward ?...
Garry...
I agree with that wholeheartedly Garry, one of the reasons why small can be beautiful. It is obviously very different in our cities on major sites but it appeared to take very little effort to change the ways of some who were maybe getting left behind a bit with all this regulation changes we have to deal with on a daily basis. Whilst agreeing with most of what is said on this thread I would still prefer it was left to the professionals as private individuals receive very little more than lip service in my own humble opinion but it will be interesting to hear feed back from the hse during the meeting. There is also a couple of posters I have spoken with in the past who could add some valuable input to your questions, hopefully they will kick in soon.
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Closure of HSE Offices - what's really happening....
As stated earlier in the thread HSE are closing their Manchester and Preston offices - the main reason for this is that HSE are haemoraging a large amount of money due to the costs of their estates/offices.
The plan is that all personnel from these offices will move to the main office at Bootle and undertake their duties from this office - there is a lot of surplus space at this office and it will accomodate the extra staff easily.
There will, because of this, be no need to reduce the number of frontline inspectors in the North West. HSE is deperately trying to save money by means other than losing staff - and they've got to save a small fortune - the budget is decreasing from £225 million this year to £165 million by 2014.
There are also in the pipeline 200 voluntary redundancies with the possibilty of up to 500 more - that has still to be decided, the majority of people taking redundancy are senior staff who are not front line or are admin staff.
Most other offices that HSE run are moving to hot desk system - the offices are only about 30 - 50% used during the week - this is in an effort to reduce office rents again so that front line personnel can be retained. HSE are also increasingly allowing and helping inspectors to work from home - again this is a money saving exercise to preserve front line numbers.
Hope this clarifies things
Corporate Manslaughter.....
There is only one statute law in the UK concerning corporate manslaughter - it is prosecuted by the CPS/police rather than the HSE - although HSE do help the police a lot in CM cases - there is no individual culpability in a CM case - it wasn't included in the legislation when CPS lawyers pointed out to government ministers that they would be in the dock if the offence involved their departments...... There is currently one CM case going through court at the moment - that of Cotswold Geotechnical in Bristol - the case has been subject to numerous delays due to the ill health of the defendent. There are several other cases currently bubbling under. The legal test for corporate manslaughter is that there has been "gross failure" at any level of management within the company that has caused a death in relation to the company's business.
In addition to this there is the common law offence of Gross Negligence Manslaughter - this is the "old" corporate manslaughter and was very difficult to prove (actually impossible) on large companies - the only successful convictions have been on small companies because the legal test was that the "directing mind" of the company had to be proved to have had knowledge of the guilty act (mens rea in legal terminology). Easy to prove in a small company ( for example - Lyme Bay canoe tragedy) and nigh on impossible to prove in a big one (Herald of Free Enterprise).
Finally ("thank god" I hear you all say......) there is a provision to prosecute individuals under the HASAW - principally sections 7, 36 and 37 - 7 being individuals and 36/37 being officers of the company if it can be proved that they acted with consent, connivance or neglect (i.e. they knew about and condoned the removing of ties for example). HSE would take these prosecutions and are increasingly likely to do so now that there is a good chance of imprisonment (due to the change in the HASAW at the start of 2009).
AOM is absolutey right regarding what HSE Inspectors will do if they can catch the cowboys - the problem is catching them - and getting the evidence for a prosecution - it does happen though.....
Scaffolding firm prosecuted for dangerous installation
Warning to scaffolding companies after firm prosecuted for collapse
Scaffolding boss receives prison sentence | Online News | Property Week
All the best
Otto
As stated earlier in the thread HSE are closing their Manchester and Preston offices - the main reason for this is that HSE are haemoraging a large amount of money due to the costs of their estates/offices.
The plan is that all personnel from these offices will move to the main office at Bootle and undertake their duties from this office - there is a lot of surplus space at this office and it will accomodate the extra staff easily.
There will, because of this, be no need to reduce the number of frontline inspectors in the North West. HSE is deperately trying to save money by means other than losing staff - and they've got to save a small fortune - the budget is decreasing from £225 million this year to £165 million by 2014.
There are also in the pipeline 200 voluntary redundancies with the possibilty of up to 500 more - that has still to be decided, the majority of people taking redundancy are senior staff who are not front line or are admin staff.
Most other offices that HSE run are moving to hot desk system - the offices are only about 30 - 50% used during the week - this is in an effort to reduce office rents again so that front line personnel can be retained. HSE are also increasingly allowing and helping inspectors to work from home - again this is a money saving exercise to preserve front line numbers.
Hope this clarifies things
Corporate Manslaughter.....
There is only one statute law in the UK concerning corporate manslaughter - it is prosecuted by the CPS/police rather than the HSE - although HSE do help the police a lot in CM cases - there is no individual culpability in a CM case - it wasn't included in the legislation when CPS lawyers pointed out to government ministers that they would be in the dock if the offence involved their departments...... There is currently one CM case going through court at the moment - that of Cotswold Geotechnical in Bristol - the case has been subject to numerous delays due to the ill health of the defendent. There are several other cases currently bubbling under. The legal test for corporate manslaughter is that there has been "gross failure" at any level of management within the company that has caused a death in relation to the company's business.
In addition to this there is the common law offence of Gross Negligence Manslaughter - this is the "old" corporate manslaughter and was very difficult to prove (actually impossible) on large companies - the only successful convictions have been on small companies because the legal test was that the "directing mind" of the company had to be proved to have had knowledge of the guilty act (mens rea in legal terminology). Easy to prove in a small company ( for example - Lyme Bay canoe tragedy) and nigh on impossible to prove in a big one (Herald of Free Enterprise).
Finally ("thank god" I hear you all say......) there is a provision to prosecute individuals under the HASAW - principally sections 7, 36 and 37 - 7 being individuals and 36/37 being officers of the company if it can be proved that they acted with consent, connivance or neglect (i.e. they knew about and condoned the removing of ties for example). HSE would take these prosecutions and are increasingly likely to do so now that there is a good chance of imprisonment (due to the change in the HASAW at the start of 2009).
AOM is absolutey right regarding what HSE Inspectors will do if they can catch the cowboys - the problem is catching them - and getting the evidence for a prosecution - it does happen though.....
Scaffolding firm prosecuted for dangerous installation
Warning to scaffolding companies after firm prosecuted for collapse
Scaffolding boss receives prison sentence | Online News | Property Week
All the best
Otto
Good to see you back on Otto. The numbers you are quoting will surely lead eventually to front line services being cut back. 200 to maybe 500 voluntary whilst might be easier than compulsory means they are not getting replaced which ever way you slice it. I suppose they are no different from any other public service. Thanks for the info anyway.