Ecitb scaffs tkt

I have recently had a part 1 & part 2 scaffolder work for me neither could base out a straight 20ft on their own!!

By the by>>>>>>>>>>>>. I spoke with someone at CITB & they could not believe the stand NASC are taking on the ECITB issue. They agreed with US that the ECITB guys should take a like for like NVQ & assesment only. Advanced for advanced.

They are looking into it!

Also they said the SCCR can register with the CITB for funding etc same as any other firm:cool::laugh:

Next we set up our own training centre & our own ticket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ragscaff
 
thanks ragscaff your doing a splended job.ur definatly on my loto list.
 
I second and third what Dico posted :D

Ragscaff I have had a quite day couple of calls near home,been nosing around the CISRS web site is it worth appealing to the CIJC



Text In” italics” taken from the CISRS Website

General Information Booklet CAP 609 Web Edition revised May2009



“NOTES
The National Access and Scaffolding Confederation (NASC) represent the Employers’
side of the Construction Industry Joint Council (CIJC). The Transport & General
Workers’ Union and the Union of Construction Allied Trades & Technicians represent the
Employees’ side of CIJC. The CIJC has delegated the management and administration of
the Construction Industry Scaffolders Record Scheme (CISRS) to NASC”.


So it was the CIJC, namely the T&G Union and UCATT Union as Employees representatives on the Joint Council in there wisdom handed the running of the CISRS to NASC the Employers voice on the Council. Does anyone know if any consultation with the respective Unions took place prior the decision being made ???


“The Construction Industry Joint Council is grateful for the advice given on the contents
of this publication by the NASC, the Access & Scaffolding Industry Training Organisation
(ASITO) and Simian Risk Management Limited.”


Thanks are given to NASC,ASITO, and Simian Risk Management on the contents of the Publication Did the T&G Union or UCATT have no input ? Were NASC,ASITO and Simian Risk Management paid any consultation fees.




“6.8 ECITB/ECI Skills Database Cards
The ECI Skills Database (also known as the ECITB) is an entirely separate scaffolders
registration scheme to the CISRS. No formal training or assessment is required to
obtain these cards and as such they are not recognised by CISRS.
If an ECI Skills card holder wished to obtain a CISRS card they would be required
to meet the full CISRS scheme criteria (I.e. Part 1, Part 2, VQ etc), as would any
experienced scaffolder who could not provide evidence of CISRS training.

6.9 Appeals Process
Where any grievance arises over the application of the Record Scheme rules, an
appeal may be made to the Scheme Manager, c/o NASC, 12 Carthusian Court,
Carthusian Street, London, EC1M 6EZ. In the event of an unsatisfactory response,
the appellant may further appeal to the Construction Industry Joint Council, the
owners of the Scheme, whose decision will be final.”

Comments on 6.8
“No formal training or assessment is required to
obtain these cards”

Is this True ???

Comments on 6.9
If we do not get any satisfaction from the Scheme Manager c/o NASC, as seems to be the case at present.
We can take the issue of ECITB card holders to the Joint Council
 
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Sorry might cause ruptions here but the ECITB card my dog could have got one as long as the company put a stamp to the piece of paper. This was also frustating when I had been a Bircham boy for a year, done all my courses, went on site and had to do a full apprenticeship for the next three years, even though technically I had a advanced card. I remember being on site and lads who had done nothing got these pieces of paper stamped by companies and got cards (Paid more than me and others). These lads did not have a clue.
I think all blokes should go through the full training 4 years as most trades do.
I bet some ECITB lads still have not got a igloo and need the proper training.
 
Sorry might cause ruptions here but the ECITB card my dog could have got one as long as the company put a stamp to the piece of paper. This was also frustating when I had been a Bircham boy for a year, done all my courses, went on site and had to do a full apprenticeship for the next three years, even though technically I had a advanced card. I remember being on site and lads who had done nothing got these pieces of paper stamped by companies and got cards (Paid more than me and others). These lads did not have a clue.
I think all blokes should go through the full training 4 years as most trades do.
I bet some ECITB lads still have not got a igloo and need the proper training.

Buy the same token I have worked with guys who have been through CITB program Parts 1 and 2 and Advanced and to be honest they couldn't be left alone to base out the simplest of jobs.

The ECITB lads I have worked with mainly on industrial/power station type work where there because they knew their jobs.

We all need to support our fellow scaffs on this one not create a division :)
 
topperoff.everyones intitled to there opinion m8.your find the ones how were no good
are no longer scaffolding.my self and many others have been to busy over the last
to decades to take time out for a course and why should i.waited 3 years before i was
issued a ecitb.
 
Sorry might cause ruptions here but the ECITB card my dog could have got one as long as the company put a stamp to the piece of paper. This was also frustating when I had been a Bircham boy for a year, done all my courses, went on site and had to do a full apprenticeship for the next three years, even though technically I had a advanced card. I remember being on site and lads who had done nothing got these pieces of paper stamped by companies and got cards (Paid more than me and others). These lads did not have a clue.
I think all blokes should go through the full training 4 years as most trades do.
I bet some ECITB lads still have not got a igloo and need the proper training.

Ruptions may be the word!!

We are not asking for a give away card. What we are saying access the ECITB guys at the level they are at. For example advanced for advanced. If they do not pass then push them down to part 2 & access. Why should anyone do an attendance course at part 1 level who has 20 years experience with what was a card for life!!!

How can anyone justify someone with no practical experience the chance to get an advanced card in two years!! No wonder there's no money in this game now.

I bet all the money I've lost over the years that the new batch of scaffolders have a lot more accidents in the near future under these conditions than any dinosaur ever had in the good old days.



:eek::eek::eek:


Ragscaff
 
I understand your arguments for also, but I think as any trade their needs to be a course or courses to be undertaken. I know as well as many others that their was a time these cards were dished to anyone and companies were willing to stamp them as the cheap alternative to putting men through courses.
I think a fair option now would be a assessed route for ECITB holders, prices reduced just for the time of the assesor etc and maybe if working assessing the works they are undertaking. That way brings down costs of courses etc and time off. This would still be a struggle to get every type of scaffold, Indep, Towers, Birdcage, Truss outs, bridging,cants, Hangers and shores, unless on Industrial sites I suppose, but just a idea??
 
E-mail sent to the CITB

"Dear Mr George,


Please find the following information in regards SCCR.

I am in the process of starting the Scaffolder Confederation for Consultation Rights. We are not happy with the conduct of the NASC & the CISRS.

Too many scaffolders are gaining tickets without ability. We are based around a web site forum called scaffoldersforum. At the moment we have just under 2000 members.

The most recent problem we are facing is the removal of the ECITB cards, the guys with these cards have been told they have to start their training from scratch. Even if they have been scaffolding for more than five years! After all the main training in scaffolding is experience.

I will tie up with you again once I am back at home with a bit more time, please let me know how we go about registering the SCCR with the CITB.

Regards Stewart Quinney

Ragscaff"
 
Sorry might cause ruptions here but the ECITB card my dog could have got one as long as the company put a stamp to the piece of paper. This was also frustating when I had been a Bircham boy for a year, done all my courses, went on site and had to do a full apprenticeship for the next three years, even though technically I had a advanced card. I remember being on site and lads who had done nothing got these pieces of paper stamped by companies and got cards (Paid more than me and others). These lads did not have a clue.
I think all blokes should go through the full training 4 years as most trades do.
I bet some ECITB lads still have not got a igloo and need the proper training.

Topperoff your dog might have been able to get an ECITB card but he could also get a CIRS card if he had £4000 in his arse pocket!!!
 
make you right ragscaff. its cheaper to do a close protection course than a cisrs and that pays min 95 pound a hour and upwards.
 
my card ran out last month SVQ level 3 advanced craft anyone know how I can renew it?
 
scotty 82 you cant renew it but it suppossed to be valid untill dec.2110 dont hold your
breath.though.
 
cheers mate not to sure what to do about it tho.

am self-employed all street stuff just a bit worried incase we get any jobs on-site and get knocked back
 
as cisrs and ecitb are to seperate schemes and cisrs is based on trainning and not
exsperience.could any one tell me where the nearest cisrs trainning centre is for a
powerstation or a gas plant.as this scaffolding on most jobs.is down to exsperience and
not trainning.but these jobs still get advertised as cisrs.
 
as cisrs and ecitb are to seperate schemes and cisrs is based on trainning and not
exsperience.could any one tell me where the nearest cisrs trainning centre is for a
powerstation or a gas plant.as this scaffolding on most jobs.is down to exsperience and
not trainning.but these jobs still get advertised as cisrs.

I totaly agree mate.

Garry Adams and myself, compiled a 'Draft Proposal Doc) entitlrd 'STOIC' in 2008. I sent it to my Union, for 1st 'Feedback'.

Till this day, bearing in mind, i am a UCATT shop steward and Safety rep, we have not had our request for 'Critical friend' feedback responded to:wondering:

I tried different avenues, to get our 'Draft' in their hands, however, my e-mail must be crap and the Royal Mail must not work either.

After reading every post in this thread, more than once, things become very clear, I am sorry to say 'Fingers in pies' springs to mind, with 'Tunnel vision' the order of the day.

Anyway, this is the Proposal, myself and Garry submitted, (Make yourself comfortable, open a beer, quite a bit reading.

GARRY ADAMS & PATRICK CARR

STOIC

Scaffold Training Offshore Industry Course.


G Adams P Carr

6/28/2008



The purpose of this joint venture is for a feasibility study regarding the transfer of fully trained Scaffolding Erectors from the Construction Industry, to the Off-shore Oil and Gas Industry and the need for Bolt-on training and Familiarization training.


STOIC
Scaffold Training Off-shore Industry Course
Compiled by:
Garry Ferguson Adams
Patrick James Carr

Introduction.
During a recent networking session between Mr Gary Adams and Mr Patrick Carr whom are both Advanced Scaffolders, with over 60 years experience between them, a dual concern was raised.

Gary lives in Aberdeen, and is a seasoned Scaffolder from working in the Oil and Gas industry, on-shore and off-shore.

Patrick lives in Newcastle upon Tyne, and is a seasoned Scaffolder working in the Construction sector. In 1996 Patrick became a Shop steward for The Union of Construction Allied Trades and Technicians, UCATT. In 2004 he proceeded to take on an additional role of UCATT Safety rep, with the backing of UCATT Northern Region, and the support of Mr Peter Wilson, UCATT Health and Safety Advisor, Northern region. Patrick decided to undertake Accredited TUC Education courses in Health and Safety.
Courses.
• 2004 TUC Health and Safety Representatives Course stage 1. Pass-level -2.
• 2005 TUC Health and Safety Representatives Course stage 2. Pass-level-3.
• 2007 TUC Access certificate in Occupational Health and Safety. Pass-level-3
Certificates/Awards/Nominations.
• 2002 As part of a team NHBC Pride in the job award.
• 2003 As part of a team NHBC pride in the job award.
• 2004 As part of a team NHBC pride in the job award.
• 2005 As part of a team NHBC pride in the job award.
• 2005 UCATT Northern region Health and Safety Representative of the year award.
• 2005 Nominated for TUC Safety Rep of the year award, (unsuccessful).
• 2006 Opportunity to be seconded to UCATT as a Worker Safety Advisor, for a period of 1 year.
In February 2008 Patrick became a member of the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health; IOSH. On receiving his TUC Access Certificate, Patrick will be able to upgrade his membership category to include the nominal title Tech IOSH.

The concern in question was; the much publicised Credit crunch and the devastating effect it was having within the House building sector of Construction. At this time there has been 100’s of construction workers, made redundant, and 1000’s at risk of being made redundant.

Out of all this Doom and Gloom, they discovered a Window of opportunity open for Scaffolders. There are Employment opportunities in the Off-shore Gas/Oil Industry for qualified Scaffolders. The online discussion identified that both on-shore and off-shore Scaffolders held the same Credentials i.e. CISRS skills card. However this was where the similarity ended due to the diverse nature of the field of operations.

They identified, that in order to gain Off-shore Employment, the scaffolder would be expected as norm to pay for a Medical, 5 day Survival course and successfully obtain a ECITB card, (Safety Passport) at great expense, and then pursue a career within the Off-shore Industry, and from there next stop, your on the Rig.

The area of mutual concern was, there is no provision of Familiarisation training or Bolt-on training, to enable the new recruits to the off-shore industry, to make a smooth Transition to a Alien place of work.
Aims.
The Aim of this initiative is to resettle the Scaffolding Erectors made redundant due to the downturn in the Building Construction Industry.
Given the increased activity in the Maintenance and Post-Construction of North Sea Offshore Installations and the chronic shortage of Scaffolding Erectors to complete these Projects, within an achievable time line the Authors of this Document propose that Familiarisation, and Bolt-on , Training Programmes be created and delivered to these Redundant Scaffolding Erectors as a matter of urgency.


The transition from the Building Construction Industry to the Offshore and Allied Onshore Processing Facilities are a Health and Safety Issue and can only be achieved by effective and efficient Familiarisation and Associated Bolt-on Training Programmes.

The Authors proposals are for a:-
• Course (Duration to be calculated) free at the point of delivery.
• Tripartite Governing body i.e. Employers, Associated Trade Unions and a Government body,(HSE for advice and guidance).
• Feasibility study, on the proposals and funding options available.
• Training courses available throughout the UK with the potential to be accredited to a recognised qualification of competence for the Transition of trained personnel into a step-change work environment.
• Employer’s recognition of the need for a course, with their input plus feed back duly recognised.
• Recruitment of Trainers/Tutors fit for task i.e. Scaffolders with off-shore experience.
• Static location for Course provision i.e. colleges etc , no STOIC training to be delivered by out-side consultancies wishing to charge a fee for services provided.
Competence.
Training is a major factor in becoming competent, however:-
Legislation requires all members of the workforce to be competent and adequately trained to work safely and requires specified members of the workforce to be competent to carry out certain 'safety critical' tasks.
The duty to ensure that employees are competent to carry out their work safely, and that specific employees are competent to carry out appointed duties lies firmly with employers (or the operator/owner under onshore-specific legislation). It is the duty of the employer or operator/owner to demonstrate, where necessary, that employees are competent.
Being competent is not simply a matter of training; other elements such as experience and knowledge are also important. However, training is a major factor in becoming competent. Training should be outcome based, with clearly established standards of competence, properly assessed and monitored to ensure that standards are maintained. Where industry-wide training standards are appropriate they should be developed in conjunction with established, independent outside bodies with appropriate expertise and experience and with capability to monitor standards. Standards developing bodies would normally be expected to be representative of both the industry and its workforce as well as training providers.
It is desirable for industry guidelines on training to be developed in consultation with workforce representatives, including trade unions, so that the workforce may have confidence in them. HSE's role is to enforce the legislation. HSE does not set training standards and does not approve or endorse training standards or industry guidelines. However industry should consult HSE on proposed guidelines so that HSE can offer advice and guidance.
Successful completion of training development in accordance with the above principles would provide strong, but not conclusive, evidence that an employee is competent in the specific aspect of his functions covered by the training. Competency assessment is also needed.
However, in many instances in order to demonstrate broad-based competence employees will need such core training to be supplemented by further knowledge, experience or on the job training. Employers would need to demonstrate, for enforcement purposes, that arrangements were in place to ensure that workers were competent, where appropriate using the relevant guidelines and standards; and that they had proper arrangements for verifying competence. For this reason the authors suggested a Tripartite Governing body, Employers (H&S Managers, Training teams,) Trade Unions (UCATT, OILC, TUC & Other relevant unions, not forgetting the Offshore Safety Reps. Government, (HSE) for advice and guidance.















Proposals/ Curriculum/ possible agenda.
STOIC

Scaffolding Training Offshore Industry Course

Specific Procedures for the Erection and Dismantlement of Access and Load Bearing Scaffolding Structures
Offshore Installations and Allied Onshore Processing Facilities: Nuclear and Associated Power Generating Industries

Joint Authors
Created by Garry Ferguson Adams : Reviewed by Patrick James Carr

Document Content

Page
3. Purpose: Scope: References
4. Definitions
5. Responsibilities
6. Procedures: General Purpose and Independent Scaffolds
7. Static Tower Scaffold
8. Bird Cage Scaffold
9. Cantilevered Scaffold
10. Slung Scaffold
11. Mobile Tower Scaffold
12. Condition of Loading: Scaffold Design
13. Scaffold Request and Register
14. Pre- Task Analysis: Tool Box Talks: Environmental Conditions:
15. Work Parties: Minimum Levels of Competency: Scaffold Squad Members
16. Safety Equipment: Working at Height
17. Enhanced Safety Requirements for Work, Over Side/Over Water, Raise Permit to Work
18. Scaffold Equipment and Materials; Scaffold Structure
19. Scaffold Inspection Pre- Commissioning: Statutory Inspection Regime
20. Post Inspection: Decommissioning
21. Storage and Quality Assurance
22. Fit for Purpose: Quarantine Area;: Manual Handling of Scaffold Equipment:
23. Rescue Plan and Procedures Inboard and Outboard
24. Guidance Notes: System Scaffolding: Record Keeping and Document Collation
25. Installation of Beams and Ladders
26. Specification for Lifting Beams: Lifting Frame:
27. Lifting Beams Maximum Spans and Bending Moments
28. Gravlock Girder Coupler: Application in Pairs Only
29. Offshore and Onshore Guard Rail and Toe Board Dimensions
30. Materials and Equipment Inspection
31.Handling and Self Weight of Scaffolding Equipment and Materials
32.Scaffold Inspection Tags
33. Conceptual Scaffolds Compliance with B.S. EN 12811-1
34. Fall Arrest Recovery System: Rescue Example
35. Drawing, Design and Erect: Scaffold Storage Rack
36. Induction: Fall Arrest Equipment, Harnesses, Reel and Anchor Points
37. Work Instructions
38. Working at extreme Height and over Water.






















Scaffolding Training Offshore Industry Course
For the purpose of this document further reference to the above named Course shall be abbreviated to STOIC

The Purpose of the STOIC is to establish an efficient and effective base line generic bench mark procedures for the erection and dismantling of Scaffolding Structures.
The intended audience and selection of candidates will be drawn from CITB or equivalent accredited Scaffolding Erectors whom wish to make the transition from Land Based Commercial and Domestic Building Projects.
The target Industries and work scope include but not exclusive to the Construction; Maintenance and Decommissioning of, Offshore Production Installations together with the allied Onshore Processing Facilities; Established Nuclear Power Stations and the New Build Programme for the construction of the Third Generation Nuclear Reactors.
The course content is designed to introduce and indoctrinate the candidate with Procedures and systems hitherto unfamiliar to or have been omitted from any formal Industrial Training regime that they have attended previously.
The learning outcome will equip the candidate with the theoretical knowledge and practical experience to identify hazards synonymous with the working environment that they find themselves in. Moreover, the candidate will be introduced to Step change Safety culture and procedures that will raise their competency level capabilities to perform their tasks to heightened degree of risk and safety management.
The course content will make reference to the H.A.S.W.A. enabled associated Regulations, B.S.EN Standards, Approved Codes of Practice and NASC Guidance Notes.
Particular focus will be placed on the list below.
BS 1139: 1991, Section 2.1 Metal Scaffolding Part 1
BS EN 39: 2001, Loose Steel Tube for Tube an Coupler Scaffolds
BS EN 12811-1 and TG20:05, Guidance to Good Practice for Scaffolding with Tube and Fittings
BS 2482: 1981, Specification for Timber Scaffold Boards
BS 1129: 1990, Specification for the Use of Portable Timber Ladders
Offshore Installation Regulations: LOLER: SI 1998 No. 2307


Conclusion.
At this present time the Authors’ of this introductory document, are working to establish and fine tune their proposed inclusions to the course agenda of the STOIC. However as time is of the essence due to the daily announcements of further job losses, within the House building sector of construction. They feel they need to introduce this document as a matter of importance to Firstly the Trade Unions, to gather Feedback on the feasibility of STOIC.

During their joint consultation regarding the framework for STOIC (nightly), the Authors were aware that a date was approaching that was etched into the memory of Thousands and Thousands of people throughout the World. The Piper Alpha oil platform disaster took place on 6 July 1988, resulting in the deaths of 167 men and leaving 62 survivors. It involved the complete destruction above sea level of the platform at 193 km northeast of Aberdeen. The crew were exposed to a range of extreme stressors, for example: toxic fumes, fire, being trapped, extended threat to life either on the platform or in the sea, witness to the injury to and/or the death of others, traumatic bereavement, and delayed rescue and medical care. On Sunday 6th July 2008, it was the 20th Anniversary of Piper Alpha.

Lord Cullen was commissioned to compile a report on the Piper Alpha disaster.

Lord Cullen’s report brought to light substantial and significant failings in the UK offshore safety regime as a whole and made 106 recommendations, all of which were accepted by the Government and by industry.

The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 is still the principal statute governing health and safety offshore, but is now supplemented by the offshore-specific regulations created post-Piper Alpha. The sanction for breach of the 1974 act or its regulations is usually a fine (or imprisonment in the case of individual liability), although the HSE can issue prohibition or improvement notices as an alternative.

Twenty years on, responsibility for death in the workplace is now being addressed by way of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007, which came into force on April 6, 2008.

The act creates a new statutory offence of corporate manslaughter (to be known as corporate homicide in Scotland), where a fatality is caused by the “gross breach” of a duty of care and where the actions of the company’s senior management played a “substantial” part in the breach.
With the coming into force of the 2007 act, companies (and, in particular, directors) should ensure that they are well prepared by doing all that they can to comply with all existing health and safety legislation, approved codes of practice, guidance and regulations, as failure to comply may be taken into consideration by a jury in reaching a decision of corporate manslaughter.

Significant improvements have been made in the UK offshore industry since Piper Alpha. Indeed, many people believe that the possibility of such a disaster has diminished over the last 20 years.

However, in November, 2007, the HSE released the findings of a three-year inspection of nearly 100 offshore installations and their equipment. The damning report into offshore safety stated that key issues identified at the time of the Piper Alpha disaster had not yet been properly addressed. The report revealed that nearly 60% of the plants were below an acceptable level of safety and 16% of them were failing to comply with legislation.

It would seem that, despite the changes introduced over the last 20 years, there is still more to be done to address safety issues offshore. Some industry leaders have even been known to indicate that many of the incidents since Piper Alpha could have led to multiple fatalities on a similar scale had sheer luck not prevented such an escalation.

Pressure to produce oil is possibly at its highest. The industry must be very careful not to put profit before safety. Compliance must be seen as essential and not as a hindrance to productivity. Operators are facing increasing costs of production, ageing infrastructure and decommissioning liabilities, and most appreciate that a proactive attitude towards health and safety will actually mitigate costs in the long term.

The challenge for the industry lies in not only improving the standard of rigs, plant and equipment, but constantly improving attitudes and behaviour. While the events of July 6, 1988, will be well known to the majority of people in the Scottish north-east, there is now a whole generation entering the oil gas industry who were not even born at the time of the disaster.

As stated before, Training is a major factor in becoming Competent. A competent workforce is a safety conscious workforce, which in turn reduces Accidents.


In the eyes of the Authors STOIC is practicable and beneficial for all concerned. The need for bolt-on training is identifiable, and would enhance the skills of an already certificated Employee, whom in turn would transfer these skills to an Employer.

Garry Ferguson Adams Patrick James Carr
2008

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 PM ----------

During the intro, i was told by my TUC Tutor to big the Union up and advertise their courses, wasnt trying to show off or any of that sh1te, just wanted a reply, so we could move on:mad:
 
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