competent

[dangeruss]

Here's a good one for you lads. Safety officer turned up on a job , inspected the scaffold , then told the scaffolder ( 20 years experience) he wasn't competent as he had an ECITB scaffolding card and it wasn't recognised by the CISRS.

The scaffolder then asked to see the safety officers scaffold inspection card. The safety office pulled out a certificate to show he'd done a two day inspection course with a training provider.

Our scaffolding friend then told the safety officer to go f*ck himself as his scaffold inspection card wasn't a CISRS inspection card, he argued that the safety officer could hardly say the scaffolder wasn't competent if he did not have an "industry recognised" card when the safety officers card wasn't either. Interesting point I thought especially when only a very small minority of these safety officers have the relevant CISRS inspection card and training.

To inspect a basic scaffold you need a CISRS basic inspection card unless you have a CISRS supervisor gold card then this covers you. To inspect an advanced scaffold structure you need a CISRS advanced scaffold inspection card regardless or whether you have an advanced scaffolding card. This is what I have been told, is this correct ?

 

[joebag]

Im trying to type but the rage is getting the better of me twodaysafetywomblenoncepcsodaddyfingeredtwat

 

[Double-Standards]

Russ you do not need a CISRS scaffold card to erect scaffold you just have to prove competence , the same with inspection certificates , you don't have to have a CISRS one but if you inspect the scaffold you again need to prove your competent.

 

[dangeruss]

Russ you do not need a CISRS scaffold card to erect scaffold you just have to prove competence , the same with inspection certificates , you don't have to have a CISRS one but if you inspect the scaffold you again need to prove your competent.

Ok, so could it be argued that our safety officer friend who has had a two day inspection course with a training provider (not CISRS) isn't recognised as being competent as his training provider isn't a recognised one. This is exactly the same example as given by the CISRS when they binned of the ECITB lads. I'm all for standardising our industry as long as everybody falls into the criteria including these safety officers who do a two course with "Joe Bloggs Safety training ltd" .

Why haven't the CITB and the CISRS and CSCS told these providers that their qualifications are no longer relevant or compliant if they are the people with the industry recognised accreditation.

On another note if you hold a CISRS advanced inspection card could you simply override a "lesser inspectors" inspection report if your qualifications were the recognised ones and his weren't ?

 

[joebag]

Got told by my mate an advanced instructor at a big training centre not to recognise the two day safety slags if they dont have a scaff card in a court they would recognise my experience and training over his perceived guidance !

 

[stonedrose1]

Just goes to show the whole things a crock of sh*te.

 

[dico]

was on a scaffold basic inspectors course just before xmas 8 candidates 3 scaffolders a stone mason and the rest were sight agents when we went out to inspect the faults on the scaffold it was easy for us but the others didn't have a clue but all passed and will receive a basic cisrs inspectors ticket to inspect scaffold was also told dangerous if you've had your part 2 cisrs ticket 18months you can sit the advanced inspectors course £350 you get the basic inspectors ticket I would rather have a ecitb scaffolder late 40s working along side me than a cisrs gold card 20 years plus not saying all are bad as some ave come throw the ranks but just shows you what trouble the scaffolder can get into with a person that's just sat the 2 day course with no experience personally don't think anybody should be able to sit the course without being a scaffolder. also there was some Nigerian lads there they sat there inspectors course then they were doing there part 1. iam not racist but it just shows you what money can do

 

[dangeruss]

was on a scaffold basic inspectors course just before xmas 8 candidates 3 scaffolders a stone mason and the rest were sight agents when we went out to inspect the faults on the scaffold it was easy for us but the others didn't have a clue but all passed and will receive a basic cisrs inspectors ticket to inspect scaffold was also told dangerous if you've had your part 2 cisrs ticket 18months you can sit the advanced inspectors course £350 you get the basic inspectors ticket I would rather have a ecitb scaffolder late 40s working along side me than a cisrs gold card 20 years plus not saying all are bad as some ave come throw the ranks but just shows you what trouble the scaffolder can get into with a person that's just sat the 2 day course with no experience personally don't think anybody should be able to sit the course without being a scaffolder. also there was some Nigerian lads there they sat there inspectors course then they were doing there part 1. iam not racist but it just shows you what money can do

I don't mind if these people go on a CISRS inspection course as this is supposed to be the recognised body for scaffolding qualifications. I just get hacked off when so called safety officers rock up on site with a mickey mouse two day wonder ticket and proceed to tell guys with 25 years experience where they are going wrong. The HSE state that site managers are deemed competent to sit a two day basic inspection course, but you really need to be in the industry or involved with scaffolding design to be able to inspect an advanced structure. So the answer is simple, throw a couple of beams into the scaffold or a cantilever and unless the inspector has an advanced inspection ticket or is a designer or is involved with scaffolding in his day to day work he can't inspect the scaffold.

 

[Gerscaff]

The Amount Of Times I Have Fallen Out With A Two Day Bozo Is Really Unbelieveable, My Question Is This Seeing As Cisrs Have Deemed It A Requirement On A Scaffolders Card To Show Competency With Whatever System Is Being Used Be It Cuplok Or Kwikstage Or Whatever, Does The Inspector Have To Do The Same, Ie Does Cisrs Run Inspection Courses In System Or Is It A One Size Fits All Scenario.

 

[longun]

Competent will now be replaced with qualified... so if you do not have at least a part 2 card, you are not allowed to erect any scaffolds with out supervision. Bits of plastic do not say you are competent, only that you are qualified to the minimum criteria.

 

[frederik]

So what did this saftey officer find wrong with the scaffold. His job was to inspect the scaffold not quals of scaffs

 

[dangeruss]

So what did this saftey officer find wrong with the scaffold. His job was to inspect the scaffold not quals of scaffs

I don't think he got the chance to find anything wrong after the initial conversation. I think he had to go back to the office and quickly read up on the CISRS to see if he was indeed qualified to the required standard.

To be honest until tg20 :13 is freely available I don't see how anybody can realistically inspect any scaffolding, it might have all changed. I asked for a copy from the NASC and they told me it wasn't available until February and the cost was over £1000 !So from the launch date until its general release its all a bit of a grey area.

 

[frederik]

He is qualified whether someone accepts it or not. eictb is a qualification. DH mentioned this in a different thread.

 

[dangeruss]

The Amount Of Times I Have Fallen Out With A Two Day Bozo Is Really Unbelieveable, My Question Is This Seeing As Cisrs Have Deemed It A Requirement On A Scaffolders Card To Show Competency With Whatever System Is Being Used Be It Cuplok Or Kwikstage Or Whatever, Does The Inspector Have To Do The Same, Ie Does Cisrs Run Inspection Courses In System Or Is It A One Size Fits All Scenario.

very good point that, you never needed a separate ticket to erect system when I did my training, you need one for every system now though. So it could be argued you need a separate inspection ticket to inspect each system.

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

He is qualified whether someone accepts it or not. eictb is a qualification. DH mentioned this in a different thread.

Yea he is qualified to an ECITB standard that is now obsolete, the trouble is its not a recognised or current qualification with the NASC and the CITB and CISRS and CSCS and the MCG and more importantly the HSE , which brings us back to square one with the safety officer and his qualification.

 

[frederik]

That would be splitting hairs to a jury,or any good scaff. Ive yet to hear one scaff say to another youre ***** cos your tickets obsolete. Theres thousands scaffolding without any tickets as all the other trades.

 

[dangeruss]

That would be splitting hairs to a jury,or any good scaff. Ive yet to hear one scaff say to another youre ***** cos your tickets obsolete. Theres thousands scaffolding without any tickets as all the other trades.

I totally agree, and if you have or have had an ECITB ticket it doesn't make you any less competent as a scaffolder. Trouble is its not us that make the rules or prosecute people. Here's what the HSE website says about it and competency.

Design and inspection issues
Unless a scaffold is a basic configuration described in recognised guidance e.g. NASC Technical Guidance TG20 for tube and fitting scaffolds or manufacturers' guidance for system scaffolds, the scaffold should be designed by calculation, by a competent person, to ensure it will have adequate strength and stability.
All scaffolding should be erected, dismantled and altered in accordance with either NASC guidance document SG4 for tube and fitting scaffolds or the manufacturers' erection guide for system scaffolds.
For scaffolds that fall outside the scope of 'Basic Scaffolds' as described in bullet point 1, the design information should describe the sequence and methods to be adopted when erecting, dismantling and altering the scaffold, if this is not covered by published guidance as detailed in bullet point 2.
Any proposed modifications or alterations outside a generally recognised standard configuration should be designed by a competent person.
Handover certificates should refer to relevant drawings, permitted working platform loadings and any specific restrictions on use.
All scaffolding inspection should be carried out by a competent person whose combination of knowledge, training and experience is appropriate for the type and complexity of the scaffold he is inspecting. Competence may have been assessed under The Construction Industry Scaffolders Registration Scheme (CISRS) or an individual may be suitably experienced in scaffolding work and have received additional training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme for the specific configuration he is inspecting.
A non-scaffolder who has attended a suitable scaffold inspection course and has the necessary background experience would be considered competent to inspect a basic scaffold (ie a site manager). The scaffold inspection report should note any defects and corrective actions taken, even when those actions are taken promptly as this assists with the identification of any recurring problems.
To prevent use by unauthorised persons of incomplete scaffolds, relevant warning signs identifying the areas where access is not permitted should be displayed at the access points to these areas. In addition, access to the incomplete areas should be prevented by suitable physical means.

[Back to top]

Competence and supervision issues
All employees should be competent (or in the case of trainees, supervised by a competent person) for the type of scaffolding work they are undertaking and should have received appropriate training relevant to the type and form of scaffolding they are working on.
Employers must provide appropriate levels of supervision taking into account the complexity of the work and the levels of training and competence of the scaffolders involved.
As a minimum requirement, every scaffold gang should contain an appropriately qualified scaffolder for the type and complexity of the scaffold to be erected, altered or dismantled. This may be an individual who has received training under an industry recognised training scheme, e.g. CISRS, and has been awarded the scaffolder card or someone who has received training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme, to the limit of the configuration(s) involved.
Trainee scaffolders should always work under the direct supervision of a qualified scaffolder (i.e. a working foreman). Scaffolders are classed as 'trainees' until they have completed the approved training and assessment required to be deemed qualified.
Erection, alteration and dismantling of complex designed scaffolding (e.g. suspended scaffolds, shoring, temporary roofs etc) should be done under the direct supervision of a competent person. This may be a qualified Advanced scaffolder, a design engineer providing they possess the necessary industry experience or alternatively an individual who has received training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme to the limit of the configuration(s) involved.

 

[frederik]

I totally agree, and if you have or have had an ECITB ticket it doesn't make you any less competent as a scaffolder. Trouble is its not us that make the rules or prosecute people. Here's what the HSE website says about it and competency.

Design and inspection issues
Unless a scaffold is a basic configuration described in recognised guidance e.g. NASC Technical Guidance TG20 for tube and fitting scaffolds or manufacturers' guidance for system scaffolds, the scaffold should be designed by calculation, by a competent person, to ensure it will have adequate strength and stability.

All scaffolding inspection should be carried out by a competent person whose combination of knowledge, training and experience is appropriate for the type and complexity of the scaffold he is inspecting. Competence may have been assessed under The Construction Industry Scaffolders Registration Scheme (CISRS) or an individual may be suitably experienced in scaffolding work and have received additional training under a recognised manufacturer/supplier scheme for the specific configuration he is inspecting.
A non-scaffolder who has attended a suitable scaffold inspection course and has the necessary background experience would be considered competent to inspect a basic scaffold (ie a site manager). The scaffold inspection report should note any defects and corrective actions taken, even when those actions are taken promptly as this assists with the identification of any recurring problems.
To prevent use by unauthorised persons of incomplete scaffolds, relevant warning signs identifying the areas where access is not permitted should be displayed at the access points to these areas. In addition, access to the incomplete areas should be prevented by suitable physical means

It is nasc guiding hse. 240 members in nasc out of thousands of scaffold companies who have no say in the matter. Im not not saying that guidance shouldnt be there.

As it says above scaffold inspections can be carried out by a competent person whose combination of knowledge training skill and experience leaves most 2 day inspectors minus 3 things. I would say knowledge experience and skill as the missing parts.

 

[money_hungry]

Lads ill prob get shot down here for my point.

But like it or not EITCB tickets were given out like candy for years yes there was some good scaffolders with them but there was also a lot of lads with hardly any experience with a grade 5 EICTB ticket.

 

[frederik]

My original point was, why had the inspector picked on the ticket rather than the job.
That would be up to the client employing the scaff. 2 day inspector inspects job and submits report.
Point taken on assessed and grandads rights. Been mentioned many times before,still, most site managers would rely on a recognised ticket as they have no other clue on the ability level of scaffolders.

 

[dangeruss]

My original point was, why had the inspector picked on the ticket rather than the job.
That would be up to the client employing the scaff. 2 day inspector inspects job and submits report.
Point taken on assessed and grandads rights. Been mentioned many times before,still, most site managers would rely on a recognised ticket as they have no other clue on the ability level of scaffolders.

Both good points, I personally think its the MCG and their insurers that probably drive our industry.

The NASC are , like it or not, the only people to standardise or try to , our industry. They do get a living from it and upset a lot of people but some of the stuff they publish is good. I don't like the fact that you have to have a high percentage of your work force directly employed to be eligible to join, that's not fair lots of lads like the idea of a rebate and the freedom to move from firm to firm.

It seems unfair that a company who employ people on the CIS basis can still get hammered by the CITB for the levy regardless of employment status, however if they want to join our industries recognised trade association they can't because of their scaffolders employment status. ok when it comes to paying out, not ok when it comes to joining !