Poll

Are Designers

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
Got to be honest, I have seen designers getting kicked all over the place for quite a while now. I have probably had the same experience with them as most people but unlike most if they are poor I simply move on to another. You are only as good as your last job no matter what you do for a living and the last time I used a designer, he was mm perfect and was no closer to the finished job than about 300 miles which despite calls from some quarters for site visits is possible using the technology available to us.
 
Rachet said:
IDH JOB:

Plastered on Facebook & Twitter yesterday is a photograph of a tube & fitting/tin sheet temporary roof structure & accompanying design scheme. The scaffolding structure has NOT been built according to the content of 2x design drawings (missing ledger bracing, roof beam chord bracing etc) and the design scheme drawings themselves do not provide enough information or elevation views, to enable a mere layman to interpret them correctly. There is no tie information on the design drawings mirroring the lack of ties in the scaffolding structure....except for 1x "after thought" tie around the internal chimney stack. The design drawings remain mainly rely on coloured lines to impart information (great if the layman is colour blind!) and do not follow the accepted standards of best practise regarding content set out in BS:8888. I appreciate that this is subjective to interpretation, but in my opinion the standard is there to establish best practise & these particular design drawing to not follow the contents of that standard! The scaffolding structure in question relies upon a bridging beam configuration to provide stability for 1-side of the Temporary roof support, but the design drawings have not been produced for this particular elevation. How is a layman (a scaffolder according to some!) expected to interpret (guess?) the tie-patterns and beam bracing requirements if that elevation view hasn't been provided by the designer in question? How has the designer "proved" that the calculations have been considered for this elevation within the scaffolding structural configuration?

Did the designer not "understand" what the scaffolding installer required when undertaking the "site investigation" as part of the site visit process? Is the scaffolder (sorry layman) then expected to just "make it up" or interpret the design drawing however he wants? Does the scaffolder have to wait for a passing Lawyer or Doctor to explain the lack of detail & elevational content to him before proceeding? If certain Design Engineer company owners dismiss scaffolders as simply layman, how does he expect them to interpret the content of his schemes, even in the event they actually contained the complete amounts of information & detail necessary? On what grounds is the scaffolder expected to question or complain, being of a lower intellect? Surely that is exactly what the layman requires in these circumstances......his hand being held by the charging professional? So who is to blame in this particular situation then? The scaffolder for not building the structure to the incomplete (elevational view/detail) design scheme? Maybe the owner of this particular design company ought to attend a 3-day course on business management, communication, providing adequate supervision of staff & maintaining/enforcing standards, or more commonly known as a Health & Safety management course. I would suggest a quick refresher on the content of TG20:08 too, as this structural scheme was installed using traditional tube & fittings. I am also very interested in how this structure was built safely, due to the lack of ties & detail in both the completed structure & the design scheme? It is fine belittling others profession & skill sets, whilst demonstrating a level of arrogance & ignorance reserved for the "holier than thou" brigade, but I suggest one really should get his house in order & pay attention to the small detail before stupidly sounding off.

Not even 1 reply from IDH on this matter! Ignorance at the highest level!
Click to expand...

Interesting observatons Ratchet! You seem to have spent a lot of time and venom in this post - have I irritated you?

Unfortunately the post you refer to is only a snap shop of what was prepared for that project so although most of your observations are correct - based on what you have seen - you are assuming a little too much and generally ignore the point my Customer's post was expressing how satisfied he was with our scheme. More importantly the ultimate customer also.

Next you'll probably tell me how it isn't designed to TG20 because of these 'missing ties' - I'll save you the trouble there are no ties on the entire job - it was designed that way - so you can keep looking to pick errors in something you know little about or keep posting like a fool!:rolleyes:

I'll bring your point about missing ledger braces to the attention of the contractor though - perhaps he can instruct a 1 day H&S advisor to inspect it. Do you know any?

---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

Seems I have offended some people by the use of the term 'Layman' in in post from a couple of days ago. I didn't want to get involved in a Conservative style 'plebb gate' so have double checked the meaning to see if it was incorrectly used.

Layperson -From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Layman)

Jump to: navigation, search


This article is about non-experts. For non-clergy, see Laity.


A layperson or layman is a person who is not an expert in a given field of knowledge. Originally, the term signified a member of the laity, i.e., a non-clergyman.[1]

The concept of describing something "in layman's terms" has come into wide use in the English-speaking world. To put something in layman's terms is to describe a complex or technical issue using words that the average person (so that someone without professional training in the subject area) can understand.

If you feel you belong in the latter part of this description and feel I refered to you with this post then in the words of Jason Gibss - I apologise. If you don't meet this criteria - I don't.
 
I have recently worked from one of IDH's designs and found the drawing to have more than enough information to complete my work.

If scaffolding was drawn, designed and called out like a "true" engineering drawing it would have you in tears.
 
To be honest I only looked at the pretty pictures. Not enough crayon for me to actually bother reading it.
 
I too have worked with one or two of IDH drawings and Tim and have found them to be of a good standard and easy interpret. The design shown on the twitter and FB was only a small part of the scheme without the usual text boxes, this lead other to assume that the design isn't fit for purpose.
 
steveo south east said:
I have put up two gantry bird cages before and both have had three check fitting on the spurs
1 was because kwik stage was used as independents both side at 2.4metre bay understandable because of the big bays 6metre spur
the other was a birdcage tube and fit 6mx18mx4m 1.2bays times 1.8 with a ten metre span do a dolly independent again 3 check fittings on spurs couldn't understand why as bays were half the size and spurs were only 4 metres

different designers one was a newbie in point being shorter bay width more structure

I had a tempory roof on a design drawing once huge block the independent was about 90 metresx15 the designer wanted me to go 2.4m bays with a tinhat tempory roof so I ignored the design cut the bays down 1.8 (scaffold regs) and built away the designer was called because I hadn't followed his drawing he got busy with his calculator and walk off with his head in his hands because I had built the scaffold stronger
Some designers are great good fun but some are so serious I mean they actually think they are on par with doctors
Click to expand...

During the construction of the Millwall Fire Station the main contractor decided that after the full external scaffolds were erected that most of the standards had to be removed at ground level. This involved a lot of beam work, RSJ's etc. Some of the spurs required 3 check fittings on the design.
We also used a lot of RMD including some cantilevered shoring.

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

I use a design engineer from the Philippines here as every scaffold apart from an independent must have a design. He is very good. His only fault is he doesnt connect the designs with our contract price so I have to keep reminding him. For example he will design a buttress using the minimum required dimensions where as I want as big as possible. Size = money.
 
Yes yes yes three check fitting on a spur is far too many as the distance of a 4metre long spur from a supporting scaffold with only one check tube under the beam on 4 doubles is 1.2-1.8 metres and they DON'T add the fittings to the potential movement of the bottom chord of beams .
So any designer who adds that amount of check fittings to a spur or puncheon is incompetent because surely you would lace with tube in that amount of check fittings to spread a load , but I think check fittings are used like trump cards (that leg load wont work lets put more fittings on until it does).
 
Last edited:
IDH said:
Just want to check first - Is that a professional or lay opinion?
Click to expand...

HarryHill_fight.jpg
 
Tom Lard said:
I too have worked with one or two of IDH drawings and Tim and have found them to be of a good standard and easy interpret. The design shown on the twitter and FB was only a small part of the scheme without the usual text boxes, this lead other to assume that the design isn't fit for purpose.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tom Lard - again not sure who you are or what job that was but alwas nice to get some positive feedback :bigsmile:
 
I think a few of us on here should scrap it out face to face instead of hiding behind their keyboards.
 
ive been in the game a few years now so i will try and give MY honest opinion

overpaid, NO WAY
arrogant, MAYBE?
scared of heights, maybe but i also know scaffs who are.

some jobs are IMO over engineered but i am no engineer and i wouldnt want to put my cock on the block as these boys do these days, calcs etc.

i personally would like more of the onus to be on the scaffs or managers and do a few more as builds, but this is not he case so give these boys the respect they deserve.;)
 
Used IDH 4 times last year does a good job for a reasonable price


He is a bit sarcastic but then so am i
 
Rachet said:
Hi Tim
After a few email exchanges I have received all I need to see unfortunately on this occasion u have dropped a b** lock. Personally I'd hold my hands up! Court of law your knackered bud! Simple as!
Click to expand...

Now run along and tell Modus how clever you have been today, safe in the knowledge that you are slating someone's business, livelihood and job on an open forum. Nice work.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom