Debris netting

J:nuts:ason i agree with you everyone has different names for different things my 18 yr old labourer said "that girl looks sick" in his slang he was saying "the girl look's pretty" . As for when you dealing with customers if they ask for a crash deck they will get a crash deck to me its a birdcage used as fall protection i wouldn't correct a man who pays bills.
 
steveo south east said:
J:nuts:ason i agree with you everyone has different names for different things my 18 yr old labourer said "that girl looks sick" in his slang he was saying "the girl look's pretty" . As for when you dealing with customers if they ask for a crash deck they will get a crash deck to me its a birdcage used as fall protection i wouldn't correct a man who pays bills.
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I agree mate 99times out of100 when they ask for crash deck it is only fall protection ,and to stop tools falling basically light duty,perhaps a better name for these scaffolds is needed,as it is only a protection in most cases.
 
I must admit - makes me sweat when it's called a crash deck- and I like Alan,call them a protection deck or protection platform!
But crash deck is a term frequently used on site.
We ,as engineers, always give a value on the drawing for the capacity of the deck( which must ALWAYS be engineered or at least design advice obtained) if only to protect the scaffold contractor ,should there be a falling object or debris onto it.
But ,as Alan pointed out- if a brick fell from a reasonable height,the impact load cannot be catered for in design, but we generally only specify a distributed load.
There are so many names for different structures and components- animals/ easifix/readylok,clips /singles, aberdeens/ underslung transoms... Etc
We just need to make sure we are all talking about the same thing in the end and that the principal contractor is aware of what they are getting!
 
Well phrased Mousehouse.
I was not looking for an argument on the subject with the guys merely drawing attention to the dangers of misinterpretation and complacency. I have been asked many times for a crash deck but have never failed to respond “we don’t do crash decks, however, I can do you a nice protection platform”.
Thanks Alan
 
hi Alan

is there any clause in TG20 in which a protection platform can be erected with out a design, providing it is fully guard railed off with relevant signage displayed?

Thanks in advance!
 
Bri said:
hi Alan

is there any clause in TG20 in which a protection platform can be erected with out a design, providing it is fully guard railed off with relevant signage displayed?

Thanks in advance!
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Tricky area, there is a whole section in TG20 (section 21)relating to Protection fans, nets and pavement frames. There are 4 basic fan loading conditions A-D.
I would suggest there are limited parameters you could follow but then the problem may not be the fan or protection itself, it may be what it is tied to.
What is clear in TG20 is that pavement frames or gantries need a design.
You will need to read the code in conjunction with the job you intend to build.
Sorry Alan
 
thanks Alan,

different shades of grey isnt it!

I was thinking more along the lines of a protection platform as a birdcage? i have heard that it doesnt need designing in some instances?

Say 2 - 3 lifts high, i would expect it to be designed as its a birdcage but as there is no loading in a natural sense and it is not being used (unless someone or something falls and the maximum height of just over 3m to the platform not really much impact) i thought as it is not a working platform there may be a way round the design aspect?

Thanks
 
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Bri said:
thanks Alan,

different shades of grey isnt it!

I was thinking more along the lines of a protection platform as a birdcage? i have heard that it doesnt need designing in some instances?

Say 2 - 3 lifts high, i would expect it to be designed as its a birdcage but as there is no loading in a natural sense and it is not being used (unless someone or something falls and the maximum height of just over 3m to the platform not really much impact) i thought as it is not a working platform there may be a way round the design aspect?

Thanks
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Unfortunately it’s all in the question, is it a protection or a birdcage?
If you have been asked for a protection you need to look at section 21 if you have been asked for a birdcage (same loading class as a Type A fan) then off you go.

If it was easy everyone would be doing it LOL
Alan
 
Thanks Alan, youve have helped!

I hate these grey areas but sometimes they work for you!
 
Hi Alan - long time since we have spoken- it's Diane Carden here- hope you are well!
This is a great way of at least explaining somewhat the grey areas! I personally as an engineer don't want to be designing 3 lift tied scaffolds when we can find solutions in tg20 but I d find some contractors will now not even accept a reference to it,we have( phil butler and I) been asked to draw out the simplest of schemes for them.it's exasperating for us and costly for the scaffold contractors too- it's the last thing they need is more expense . In many cases main contractors are insisting this is at the scaffolders expense too!
 
I think this is a big problem. Principal contractors are asking for designs constantly to cover their backs just in case.

If you're pricing a job you add in the price of the design and then if there need to be revisions the P.C. will argue it should have been like that in the first place and will not pay for an extra design or confirmation.

The only issue i see is that with confirmation such as a photocopied page of TG20 it does not reflect the scaffold in terms of what is erected, and in many cases does not really come from the designers it will be a scaffold contractor trying to everything they can to get out of the extra money needed for confirmation and time of altering the job.
 
Is it not the case that only the calcs are relevant to the princible contractor?making the actual drawing as guidance for the scaffolder's only?:unsure:
 
i think its something to do with limit state, you now have to prove that the scaffold is capable of what it is erected for rather than proving it if something was to happen, sometimes i wish i could read like a lawyer it might make more sense.

People like Alan and Diane understand what they can do and we can pick bits up but until its fully explained i think 90 percent of the scaffold firms will be none the wiser, but thats just my opinion!
 
I agree Bri- it needs addressing
And if you have had a design prepared,your engineer should represent you in the case of alterations to the job by negotiating with the pc that it is a revision to the original that should be paid for- sometimes the engineer is in a better technical position to help you in this case.
I was referring also to confirmation by an engineer- a simple email or short
letter can suffice- we do this regularly as a free service to our own customers as a help to them to get the job moving- we are proactive in arguing( diplomatically) the case for the scaffold contractor when clearly the item is covered by TG20 and providing evidence to back this up
 
Mousehouse said:
Hi Alan - long time since we have spoken- it's Diane Carden here- hope you are well!
This is a great way of at least explaining somewhat the grey areas! I personally as an engineer don't want to be designing 3 lift tied scaffolds when we can find solutions in tg20 but I d find some contractors will now not even accept a reference to it,we have( phil butler and I) been asked to draw out the simplest of schemes for them.it's exasperating for us and costly for the scaffold contractors too- it's the last thing they need is more expense . In many cases main contractors are insisting this is at the scaffolders expense too!
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Hi Diane it is indeed a long time.
We can both recall the same events as are now taking place with the advent of 5973. It will take time for the industry to settle and level out, when it does things should be better all around.
I was on a comittee that fought against various sections within TG20: 05 not the least of which was the removal of two lifts of bracing. You win some you loose some I guess.

Still good to see you are still about kind regards to both you and Phil.
 
it look like you like to be anal alan lol get it get it
 
Mousehouse said:
I agree Bri- it needs addressing
And if you have had a design prepared,your engineer should represent you in the case of alterations to the job by negotiating with the pc that it is a revision to the original that should be paid for- sometimes the engineer is in a better technical position to help you in this case.
I was referring also to confirmation by an engineer- a simple email or short
letter can suffice- we do this regularly as a free service to our own customers as a help to them to get the job moving- we are proactive in arguing( diplomatically) the case for the scaffold contractor when clearly the item is covered by TG20 and providing evidence to back this up
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Surely things like this cant go on as they are....

certain scaffolds have been built time and time again. If the scaffold contractor can build a scaffold to best practice i cant see why it shouldn't be accepted with out design.

I know its the limit state thing but if ties are within the correct spacing and the scaffold is erected well this should be acceptable!

Or, a design book of relevant designs we can work to should be published, its hard enough trying to find out whats changed in this industry let alone having to pay for stuff thats not needed.
 
Bri said:
Surely things like this cant go on as they are....

certain scaffolds have been built time and time again. If the scaffold contractor can build a scaffold to best practice i cant see why it shouldn't be accepted with out design.

I know its the limit state thing but if ties are within the correct spacing and the scaffold is erected well this should be acceptable!

Or, a design book of relevant designs we can work to should be published, its hard enough trying to find out whats changed in this industry let alone having to pay for stuff thats not needed.
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Thats a great idea.
Only thing i can see wrong with it, is who would endorse it? - I mean if something was to go wrong, would the company who published it, be held accountable?

Theres alot of red tape and insurance involved and people like to get their pound of flesh if things go wrong.
 
Jason-Gibbs said:
Thats a great idea.
Only thing i can see wrong with it, is who would endorse it? - I mean if something was to go wrong, would the company who published it, be held accountable?

Theres alot of red tape and insurance involved and people like to get their pound of flesh if things go wrong.
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Agree mate.

TG20:08 is theoretically a design in itself, its giving you perameters you can work to but cant exceed, so if its endorsed to a current stage maybe there is scope to push the boundaries a little wider with the next?

dunno mate, alot cleverer people outthere than me!
 
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