Animals/double enders

Why the inside standards on the bottom lift and not the outside? I have seen a few braced like that but any design job we ave done usually just goes the same way.

Thanks for the cash marra, much appreciated, even if it was designed to make me buy the breakies again.;)
 
I will always look for traditional bracing patterns where "ANIMALS" or the like are used.

I believe SGB did some testing years ago (I have never seen a printed report or calculations),but as this company is no longer trading they are no longer valid.
In any case there has been so much legislation,guidelines and best practice in the past ten years those tests would have been made redundant.

The only exception to this would be a designed scaffold when I would request a copy of the designers calcs as regards the bracing in the structure
 
aom said:
Why the inside standards on the bottom lift and not the outside? I have seen a few braced like that but any design job we ave done usually just goes the same way.

Thanks for the cash marra, much appreciated, even if it was designed to make me buy the breakies again.;)
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i was told that it was to be brace from th inside sgandards out as when the weight comes down its transfered in to the inside standards and will lean towards the building in exreme cases as aposed to away from the buliding .......the apprentice has now be come the sourer ahahah

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Rigger said:
I will always look for traditional bracing patterns where "ANIMALS" or the like are used.

I believe SGB did some testing years ago (I have never seen a printed report or calculations),but as this company is no longer trading they are no longer valid.
In any case there has been so much legislation,guidelines and best practice in the past ten years those tests would have been made redundant.

The only exception to this would be a designed scaffold when I would request a copy of the designers calcs as regards the bracing in the structure
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sure some 1 like alan rae said they had been tests on them but the test were more down the lines of the working load same as a double and they are rated to the same a a double
 
haha, well done sorcerer, but to be honest, this apprentice still thinks it's a load of old tosh what way you put them. I have heard a lot of different ideas and opinions regurgitated as fact, think the best one was the braces had to go from inside to out so the rainwater would fall away from their nice new shiny facade.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong marra and no doubt someone will have a go at convincing me but I have never been convinced it matters what way you put them as long as they follow a pattern, either dog legged or all one way.
 
aom said:
haha, well done sorcerer, but to be honest, this apprentice still thinks it's a load of old tosh what way you put them. I have heard a lot of different ideas and opinions regurgitated as fact, think the best one was the braces had to go from inside to out so the rainwater would fall away from their nice new shiny facade.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong marra and no doubt someone will have a go at convincing me but I have never been convinced it matters what way you put them as long as they follow a pattern, either dog legged or all one way.
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i dont me sell they just go in how they go in for me lol but clashign braces i fekign h8 them
 
being a Mills trained scaffolder I have always dog legged braces, in fact we always referred to them as "Dog legs",the first lift going towards the building/structure . the mills swivel caught many an experienced scaffolder out,:blink: as it would only turn on one side when fixed

SGB always fixed thiers from inside ledger to outside ledger with the DH fitting where extra strength was required a band and plate would be used,on occasions using a "chair"

PS sgb swivels were an abortion with about 3 inch of thread and a crap angle to fasten,defiantly a flat spanner jobby
 
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As for the double upside down mate if the bolt slips the arm will catch the tube, must admit doglegging in my mind would equal the forces transferred wheras bracing all one way just seems like it would bias movement to oneside, but im no alan reade so ask god himself ;)

Wouldnt see how the extra 4 inch approx of surface area on an animal can take away the need for ledger bracing, maybe more lifts could be left out for access etc but I personally wouldnt leave it out completely, profesional suicide ?
 
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I always dog legged them back in the day and still refer to them as dog legs as well, only stopped a year or two after starting out myself when someone mentioned all one way kept it nipped to the building. It was probably a year or two after that I discovered it meant nothing, probably when I started dealing with designers.

Also, mostly just used swivel to swivel in my rig blast days, now just reverted back to the double at the top to swivel at the bottom mostly to suit the toe board unless it's special purpose.
 
aom said:
I always dog legged them back in the day and still refer to them as dog legs as well, only stopped a year or two after starting out myself when someone mentioned all one way kept it nipped to the building. It was probably a year or two after that I discovered it meant nothing, probably when I started dealing with designers.

Also, mostly just used swivel to swivel in my rig blast days, now just reverted back to the double at the top to swivel at the bottom mostly to suit the toe board unless it's special purpose.
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if you do it 1 way not easier to put swivel on inside no toe boared there.
so one mentioned them on price if its a must on price surley it must be a must for gaffers paying hourly day rate then? or not ?
 
To be honest Marra, if I remember correctly most felt there was slightly more room for access when the brace was fitted above the toe board. Before TG20, every safety man had an opinion and I remember doing 1 sizeable job using 5 foots for brace from the inside ledger to the top handrail. I hated that and never did it again. When the first TG20 came out in 2005 I think it was, had an allowance to remove 2 lifts of bracing as long as they were strapped to the outside of the job and the upper lifts were not in use. Another load of old tosh, although we did it for a while. We also got a few complaints from guys tripping over the brace when we doglegged them when they went from inside to out so we finally settled on reverting back to the way we always did them which was as described.

We don't do price Marra, but if we did it would be the same way whatever the pay scale.
 
aom said:
To be honest Marra, if I remember correctly most felt there was slightly more room for access when the brace was fitted above the toe board. Before TG20, every safety man had an opinion and I remember doing 1 sizeable job using 5 foots for brace from the inside ledger to the top handrail. I hated that and never did it again. When the first TG20 came out in 2005 I think it was, had an allowance to remove 2 lifts of bracing as long as they were strapped to the outside of the job and the upper lifts were not in use. Another load of old tosh, although we did it for a while. We also got a few complaints from guys tripping over the brace when we doglegged them when they went from inside to out so we finally settled on reverting back to the way we always did them which was as described.

We don't do price Marra, but if we did it would be the same way whatever the pay scale.
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i meant on the animal side of things on price and on day rate i recon its at least 40% faster than traditional tube and fit . how you getting on wid ya system ya still on cuplock or ya gont for the layher?
 
Unless designed without braces, then they must be installed. You could get round it by plan bracing your lifts which were doing at solihull. I've got drawings of the job i'll try and upload them on here tommorow, but ive tried before and failed.
 
marra watson said:
i meant on the animal side of things on price and on day rate i recon its at least 40% faster than traditional tube and fit . how you getting on wid ya system ya still on cuplock or ya gont for the layher?
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Fancy a head to head, you with the animals and me with the IW? Single handed mind.

I looked at the layher but reckoned it would keep me in this business for longer than I wanted so gave it a miss. We are still running cuplok and the boys still give me a bit of a hard time about the fact it stays in the yard till all the tube is gone.

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scaffy 1980 said:
Unless designed without braces, then they must be installed. You could get round it by plan bracing your lifts which were doing at solihull. I've got drawings of the job i'll try and upload them on here tommorow, but ive tried before and failed.
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I still get it wrong Den, the forum limits are quite small so you will probably have to cut or copy just a small section of the drawing then upload it. It's the only way I know to get round it anyway.
 
He he i'll take you on ali. You buy the breakie if you lose...lol lol
As for cuplock, best place for it in the yard mate.
 
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aom said:
Fancy a head to head, you with the animals and me with the IW? Single handed mind.

I looked at the layher but reckoned it would keep me in this business for longer than I wanted so gave it a miss. We are still running cuplok and the boys still give me a bit of a hard time about the fact it stays in the yard till all the tube is gone.

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I still get it wrong Den, the forum limits are quite small so you will probably have to cut or copy just a small section of the drawing then upload it. It's the only way I know to get round it anyway.
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ahahah lol honest marra it miles quicker. just imagine the possobilities of animal with a iw lol blowign ya tash of material that rite there. big lumps of jobs timber framed stright runs crnt beat an animal only with layher .
 
My t'internet collapsed there marra, sorry for the delay but I know that you are right, I just like to get the challenges out there every now and again.
 
It’s all in the name “Ledger Bracing”
When thinking of the bearing area of a dog bone, double ender, readylok type unit in relationship to ledger braced structure you should consider the following:
The concept of Ledger braces was to run from ledger to ledger, as a result you only had the rotational friction of a coupler to keep the corners at 90deg. it was the return brace that stopped the rotation.
Readylok, connected to the standard with a larger surface area of bearing thus the assumption was there would be no rotation and as such no bracing would be required.

We have visited this topic many times in the past but here go’s.
To my knowledge SGB NEVER tested the Readylok concept they did however publish a set of restrictions which were worked to by ALL their engineers for in excess of 40 years.
These restrictions were as follows:

Ledger bracing was not required up to 30m in unclad structures.
This led to the clear assumption that structures over 30m required ledger bracing and that clad structures also required ledger bracing.
NOTE I repeat there was no testing carried out for either case.

Some years late Generation did some testing on a similar unit, my own opinion was that this testing was “local” testing that is to say it tested the rigidity of the unit being tested but not the effectiveness of the units within the structure thus I felt the tests whilst more than had been carried out previously were inconclusive and inaccurate.
I understand that Gen have now withdrawn their test results.
I believe that Readylok type components are to be covered in TG20:13 but I have no clue what they will say.

regards
Alan
 
I remember using these "animals" or "dog bones" as we called them when subbying for SGB. We never put ledger braces in except on sheeted scaffolds and temporary roofs. We used to brace with a set onshore on unboarded lifts and swivel to b+p on boarded lifts. Offshore was always swivel to swivel for braces.
 
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