I can understand their problem Alan and the same could be said for many trades I would imagine, I see it here but what's the answer, pay them the shilling they seek I suppose? Without wishing to deviate too much from the point of the thread, I train the young boy's from scratch to up there with the best of them and many large concerns would be lucky to have them but as they dwindle I have to start again. Not an easy task when you consider the investment I make in each one of them. To stop training them is no solution at all. During the 70's and 80's GB were a major player and if they continued in the same vein they might still have been today. As usual, more questions than answers but as Dico always say's beats watching Eastenders.