what does simian think

[dico]

all these new regs are you with the scaffolder or do you agree with the new regs you seem very quite and only join in when it suits you sorry!!! but this how it comes across:laugh:

---------- Post added at 12:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

i remember when scaffolders earnte there wage why should you have to line 3rd parties pockets to get on in scaffolding and why should you ave to ave a bloody good drink to say how things are!!!

 

[celticbhoy]

couldnt give a hoot what any third party thinks kev its what we think mate dungy very soon hope you havent burnt yourself out on the drink front lol and still have a few sheckles for a few with the lads that really matter,all the best cb.

 

[frederik]

Well said Dico. Did ask the question a while back..what can you teach an experienced Eictb working scaff????.....Dont recall ever getting a reply!!!!!!!!

 

[simian]

Dico,

I only normally get involved when someone asks me a question because i have been out of the country recently working.

With regards to the new regulations the last real one was for the Work at Height Regs 2005 six and a half years ago, the new guidance is TG20:08 and soon to be TG20:13 as it is being revised to incorporate the new European wind code BS EN 1991. This is Europe who change things and we have a commitment as part of Europe to endorse it. I think this may have been the Labour government years ago taking us in to closer ties with their laws and guidance.

BSEN 12811 came out in 2003 and BS5973 had to be withdrawn because it conflicted with a European Standard, no testing to destruction ever took place for BS5973 and we have a book in our office from 1947 more or less showing the same leg spacings and tie patterns now shown in TG20 after testing so not a lot has changed only the names of documents. I can understand things have gone really fast over the past 6 years but the work at height has dictated it.

With regards to SG4:10 there is little change from SG4:05 apart from some new products and systems of work, the HSE dictated collective protection over personal and there was a lot of discussion in the scaffolding industry whether to adopt this and move away from harnesses being the number one choice clipping on but the Work at Height law is the law and all companies have to comply NASC or not.

Next Inspection of scaffold is simple ring or ask any HSE inspector and he will say competent to build it and you are competent to inspect it. Yes there are courses out there and whilst they are there clients will request their scaffs undertake them. Look at one of the biggest players in the industry and they do their own 3 day inspection course with their own instructors and it does not comply with CISRS but some of the biggest blue chip companies in the world accept it. If you do the CISRS course it will last for five years like the scaffold card.

With regards to training: If training was so bad and nobody learned anything then why isnt scaffolding falling down every day and why are scaffolders not dying every week. The facts from the NASC who are the only ones who measure this and suspend members who dont send in the info states a 78% reduction in falls in 10 years, its hard to say i'm not going to adopt new practices on this evidence. Training is too cheap and the CITB as a government funded operation keep the prices low, all centres are struggling and if there was no European money at least half of them would have closed by now.

For a comparison you do a Nebosh course in a classroom over 10 days £2500, 10 days scaffolding in a 10,000ft square warehouse with a classroom with material needed £800-£850. Does not sound dear now does it.

I used to have an ECITB card as you know and an EITB card prior to that but when i went offshore it was CITB/CISRS or nothing hence i had to change itand complete all the training, there are good and bad scaffs on both sides of the cards and there always will be.

Let me go back to the law, Work at Height regulations state training in the system you are working with, i.e. layher, tube and fitting, cuplok, kwikstage etc etc. The law is the law and its written by Europe and the HSC.

I always see scaffolding like driving, once you have passed your test you start to learn.

What could we teach an experienced ECITB scaff will depend on where he has worked because if he has been house bashing quite a lot, if he has been on major sites with regular toolbox talks and training not as much. What they will get it the up to the date scaffolding information that is coming out of the NASC for guidance.

IF

 

[XxIANxX]

But any one who moved from the old ECITB course onto the assessed route of entry didn't receive training . Can you explain that one, mis sold course perhaps

 

[ragscaff]

We keep saying we have to follow Europe but when I have worked in France you can still scaffold in your thong if you want.

Also why have we not protected our working practices as much as the Cornish pasty or Yorkshire pudding, Europe wanted those names change?

Working practices relevant to the work being carried out. As you have said & has been said many times what has changed in scaffolding in thirty years.

In my mind I have never felt more unsafe with all the eyes watching & my body, if starting now would not stand the time with wearing a harness day in day out for no reason getting caught on fittings whilst moving round or up the scaffold. Hemping in a dangerous manner & working off small platforms instead of the working platform.

The problem with training shows now & will get worse over the next few years as the experienced guys come out of the job. The turn over of scaffolders who can't do the job is getting worse, we struggle to get guys who can do the basics & you are talking 2 + years on the tools some with 5 +.

No one ever said give ECITB a ticket just assess them & enter them in the level they are experienced at. BUT that goes for any scaffolder who has not undertaken the CISRS card.

What happens in 5 years when the CSCS is removed?

Stewart

 

[simian]

But any one who moved from the old ECITB course onto the assessed route of entry didn't receive training . Can you explain that one, mis sold course perhaps

Easy one this, the construction health safety and welfare regs 1996 stated competence and not training but the work at height regs 2005 states training, hence the end of assessed route and Ecitb. No mi sold courses as all who did the ASRE will be happy with their CISRS cards I'm sure. As a safety consultant Ian I thought you would have known that.

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

Removing the CSCS is that the next rumour. Ian

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

All cisrs are doing is changing the company who is doing the tests not the cards

 

[aom]

You can't beat a good rumour Ian, it's like Chinese whispers sometimes.

 

[simian]

You can't beat a good rumour Ian, it's like Chinese whispers sometimes.

I know

 

[ragscaff]

It was on the CSCS web site that the contract will not be renewed.

The change can happen within the next five years.

There have been posts in relation to this a while ago.

Did not think it was a rumour!!

Stewart

 

[aom]

The craic can be good with the chat around the mysterious of health and safety but it is always good when yourselves, Ken Cain and Otto come out with a definitive answer.

You all should maybe start a myth busting thread.

 

[simian]

It was on the CSCS web site that the contract will not be renewed.

The change can happen within the next five years.

There have been posts in relation to this a while ago.

Did not think it was a rumour!!

Stewart[/QUOTE

It's going to change but just test provider and that is happening next April. The one at the moment is called prometric but it does not show anywhere on your card

---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

The craic can be good with the chat around the mysterious of health and safety but it is always good when yourselves, Ken Cain and Otto come out with a definitive answer.

You all should maybe start a myth busting thread.

I did once called scaffolders urban myths

 

[XxIANxX]

Easy one this, the construction health safety and welfare regs 1996 stated competence and not training but the work at height regs 2005 states training, hence the end of assessed route and Ecitb. No mi sold courses as all who did the ASRE will be happy with their CISRS cards I'm sure. As a safety consultant Ian I thought you would have known that.

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

Removing the CSCS is that the next rumour. Ian

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

All cisrs are doing is changing the company who is doing the tests not the cards

.
So how long before you dare tell people that their assessed route is no good , your missing another money spinner for your training centre

 

[aom]

I either missed it or cant remember, will check it out.

 

[XxIANxX]

Easy one this, the construction health safety and welfare regs 1996 stated competence and not training but the work at height regs 2005 states training, hence the end of assessed route and Ecitb. No mi sold courses as all who did the ASRE will be happy with their CISRS cards I'm sure. As a safety consultant Ian I thought you would have known that.

---------- Post added at 02:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

Removing the CSCS is that the next rumour. Ian

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

All cisrs are doing is changing the company who is doing the tests not the cards

.

Oh and the heath and safety at work act 1974 states that training should be provided , thought you might of known that
simian

.

Without prejudice to the generality of an employer’s duty under the preceding subsection, the matters to which that duty extends include in particular—.

(a)the provision and maintenance of plant and systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health;.

(b)arrangements for ensuring, so far as is reasonably practicable, safety and absence of risks to health in connection with the use, handling, storage and transport of articles and substances;.

(c)the provision of such information, instruction, training and supervision as is necessary to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety at work of his employees;.

(d)so far as is reasonably practicable as regards any place of work under the employer’s control, the maintenance of it in a condition that is safe and without risks to health and the provision and maintenance of means of access to and egress from it that are safe and without such risks;.

(e)the provision and maintenance of a working environment for his employees that is, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe, without risks to health, and adequate as regards facilities and arrangements for their welfare at work.


.
Oh and he's disappearead

 

[aom]

The myth buster thread worked a treat as well.

 

[XxIANxX]

The myth buster thread worked a treat as well.

.
I wonder if the new company taking over CSCS will have room to fit in at bridewell place theres already 2 companies registered there

 

[simian]

.
I wonder if the new company taking over CSCS will have room to fit in at bridewell place theres already 2 companies registered there

Bircham Newton I'm afraid

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

.
So how long before you dare tell people that their assessed route is no good , your missing another money spinner for your training centre

The law will dictate this what's done is done.

 

[XxIANxX]

Bircham Newton I'm afraid

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------



The law will dictate this what's done is done.

.
But you did know about this , its just that in your previous post you seemed to of missed it out for some reason ?????
.


.

Without prejudice to the generality of an employer’s duty under the preceding subsection, the matters to which that duty extends include in particular—.

(a)the provision and maintenance of plant and systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health;.

(b)arrangements for ensuring, so far as is reasonably practicable, safety and absence of risks to health in connection with the use, handling, storage and transport of articles and substances;.

(c)the provision of such information, instruction, training and supervision as is necessary to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety at work of his employees;.

(d)so far as is reasonably practicable as regards any place of work under the employer’s control, the maintenance of it in a condition that is safe and without risks to health and the provision and maintenance of means of access to and egress from it that are safe and without such risks;.

(e)the provision and maintenance of a working environment for his employees that is, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe, without risks to health, and adequate as regards facilities and arrangements for their welfare at work.

 

[ragscaff]

It was on the CSCS web site that the contract will not be renewed.

The change can happen within the next five years.

There have been posts in relation to this a while ago.

Did not think it was a rumour!!

Stewart[/QUOTE

It's going to change but just test provider and that is happening next April. The one at the moment is called prometric but it does not show anywhere on your card

---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------



I did once called scaffolders urban myths

Ian,

Does the CSCS stay is it just the company that you e-mail to try & get the test booked that is changing? Did not know that.

Are the CITB going to run it themselves?

Stewart