I have sent an email to the OFT about the CISRS and NASC asked them to look into the whole CITB thing along with the lagallity of what they do.Im hoping for some sort of feedback,anything anyone would like to add Im open to suggestions.I spoke to the Competitons Comitee and was advised that I should go through the OFT.I have also Emailed my MEP as this is against from what I can see both British and European law.Again this is just my interpretation of the law so any one with legal or 1st hand knowledge of this I would like to hear from.Fingers crossed. I think the only avenue open is a legal challenge.
Office of Fair Trading
- Thread starter digsie
- Start date
andyf8686
Well-known member
Put the detail up mate so we can all send an email to question how they can only be one ticket for scaffolder and no competition
Il try get the email up here im not a wizz with this computer lark,give us a few mins see what I can do.
---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------
To whom it may concern,
I am a 30 year old Scaffolder with 10 years experience. I am amongst the many scaffolders currently experiencing difficulties in continuing their career due to structure changes in some of the bodies involved in scaffolding. I am hoping you can be of help to us. The main problem is recognition of training we have already undergone,and are now been asked to do again under a different body.
The Scaffolding Industry has a body called The National Association Of Scaffolding Contractors (N.A.S.C.) All major scaffolding company's are members of this orginisation. To become a member your scaffolders must have trained with the Construction Industry Scaffolders Record Scheme, (C.I.S.R.S).I have spoken to the CISRS and they do not recognise any other training body. Under health and safety law a scaffolder must be capable and competent. Nowhere does it say you must be qualified. Retraining is not a possibility as I have commitment's,it is also not realistic to find a company willing to take on a 30 year old trainee or to work on a trainee wage. Thousands of scaffolders have trained through the Construction Industry Training Board (C.I.T.B.) Thes qualifications are no longer recognised by the N.A.S.C.,in effect cutting thousands of scaffolders off from work. Up until a few years ago the C.I.S.R.S. had an assessment exam you undertook to get your equivalent qualification.This however has ceased. I understand a hazardous job such as scaffolding must have a regulatory body,but surely an assessment is not beyond reason,without this it seems to me that this is a money making scheme with no regard for experienced scaffolders
I have worked in London and Scotland since I moved to Britain in 2006,but now the C.I.S.R.S. is the only recognised card by the N.A.S.C., I am struggling to find employment.Scaffolding is not on the list of trades by the National Academic Recognition Information Centre(N.A.R.I.C.) requiring retraining to work in GB. I have been working on my Irish qualifications for the last 5 years. This situation is leaving thousands of trained and time served British and overseas scaffolders with the option of either being left out in the wilderness, or paying the ransom that will allow them to get back to work in their preferred trade(After some time ''training'' which we have already done).This in my opinion is an abuse of power, not to mention being against British and European Law.
I have spoken to all parties concerned and have been basically told 'that is the way it is'. That is why I have turned to the OFT. I understand that this opens up other avenues that are more intricate including employment law,freedom of movement in the EU etc. But I feel the crux of the matter is the relationship between the NASC and the CISRS. and the corner they have put hard working scaffolders into.
To summarise:
*NASC only recognises CISRS,
*NASC members must have CISRS trained scaffolders,
*CISRS does not recognise any other training body,
*No assessment for a CISRS qualification,only lengthy and costly training,(no matter ones experience),
*No legal requirement to hold CISRS qualifications,
*No legal requirement to retrain if coming from overseas,
*Legal obligation under EU law to be allowed to work freely in member states.
I thank you for your time, and hope I am contacting the right body,and that you can be of some help to me and thousands of others affected by this situation. It has been a hard few years since the banking crisis and work is still hard to come by,this doesn't make things any easier,and as you can imagine takes its toll on family life.
I can also be contacted on my mobile on 07********* if you so wish.
Yours Sincerely,
I gave my name and phone number but dont want it out in the open.Would join the sccr but I dont have a debit card so cand use pay pal,can pay by Postal Order if possible.
---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------
To whom it may concern,
I am a 30 year old Scaffolder with 10 years experience. I am amongst the many scaffolders currently experiencing difficulties in continuing their career due to structure changes in some of the bodies involved in scaffolding. I am hoping you can be of help to us. The main problem is recognition of training we have already undergone,and are now been asked to do again under a different body.
The Scaffolding Industry has a body called The National Association Of Scaffolding Contractors (N.A.S.C.) All major scaffolding company's are members of this orginisation. To become a member your scaffolders must have trained with the Construction Industry Scaffolders Record Scheme, (C.I.S.R.S).I have spoken to the CISRS and they do not recognise any other training body. Under health and safety law a scaffolder must be capable and competent. Nowhere does it say you must be qualified. Retraining is not a possibility as I have commitment's,it is also not realistic to find a company willing to take on a 30 year old trainee or to work on a trainee wage. Thousands of scaffolders have trained through the Construction Industry Training Board (C.I.T.B.) Thes qualifications are no longer recognised by the N.A.S.C.,in effect cutting thousands of scaffolders off from work. Up until a few years ago the C.I.S.R.S. had an assessment exam you undertook to get your equivalent qualification.This however has ceased. I understand a hazardous job such as scaffolding must have a regulatory body,but surely an assessment is not beyond reason,without this it seems to me that this is a money making scheme with no regard for experienced scaffolders
I have worked in London and Scotland since I moved to Britain in 2006,but now the C.I.S.R.S. is the only recognised card by the N.A.S.C., I am struggling to find employment.Scaffolding is not on the list of trades by the National Academic Recognition Information Centre(N.A.R.I.C.) requiring retraining to work in GB. I have been working on my Irish qualifications for the last 5 years. This situation is leaving thousands of trained and time served British and overseas scaffolders with the option of either being left out in the wilderness, or paying the ransom that will allow them to get back to work in their preferred trade(After some time ''training'' which we have already done).This in my opinion is an abuse of power, not to mention being against British and European Law.
I have spoken to all parties concerned and have been basically told 'that is the way it is'. That is why I have turned to the OFT. I understand that this opens up other avenues that are more intricate including employment law,freedom of movement in the EU etc. But I feel the crux of the matter is the relationship between the NASC and the CISRS. and the corner they have put hard working scaffolders into.
To summarise:
*NASC only recognises CISRS,
*NASC members must have CISRS trained scaffolders,
*CISRS does not recognise any other training body,
*No assessment for a CISRS qualification,only lengthy and costly training,(no matter ones experience),
*No legal requirement to hold CISRS qualifications,
*No legal requirement to retrain if coming from overseas,
*Legal obligation under EU law to be allowed to work freely in member states.
I thank you for your time, and hope I am contacting the right body,and that you can be of some help to me and thousands of others affected by this situation. It has been a hard few years since the banking crisis and work is still hard to come by,this doesn't make things any easier,and as you can imagine takes its toll on family life.
I can also be contacted on my mobile on 07********* if you so wish.
Yours Sincerely,
I gave my name and phone number but dont want it out in the open.Would join the sccr but I dont have a debit card so cand use pay pal,can pay by Postal Order if possible.
andyf8686
Well-known member
Can you post email address you sent it to will make thing easy for everyone to copy and paste
---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------
Ragscaff / Paddy
Can you put a letter together and post it on the forum so people can forward it with regards to fair trading ? If not on here on the SCCR site
Cheers
---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------
Ragscaff / Paddy
Can you put a letter together and post it on the forum so people can forward it with regards to fair trading ? If not on here on the SCCR site
Cheers
enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk
It varies according to the site the adress above is for England and Wales different one for Scotland,My case is different to most lads here like the CITB boys especially.But as far as I know the information I sent them is correct.If everyone sends them their own story and the hassle they have by my guess surely they have to do something.I know i could be opening a can of worms but Im confident in my scaffolding so surely they have nothing to be scared of........except losing money:wondering:
It varies according to the site the adress above is for England and Wales different one for Scotland,My case is different to most lads here like the CITB boys especially.But as far as I know the information I sent them is correct.If everyone sends them their own story and the hassle they have by my guess surely they have to do something.I know i could be opening a can of worms but Im confident in my scaffolding so surely they have nothing to be scared of........except losing money:wondering:
Digsie you make a pretty fair point mate. The only thing I would question maybe is this
It might not state it but my understanding is that a "competent" scaffolder is deemed to be one who is trained to the level required for their job, thus meaning a certain level of qualification.
Maybe someone else has a different view but that has always been my take on it.
It might not state it but my understanding is that a "competent" scaffolder is deemed to be one who is trained to the level required for their job, thus meaning a certain level of qualification.
Maybe someone else has a different view but that has always been my take on it.
R
ragscaff
Guest
This is an issue we have looked into.
It is double edged.
The Industry does need formal training to be seen as a skilled trade.
The HSE recognised this & are keen to progress it being enforced.
At present you should be trained & ticketed. This could be done in house if you so wished.
The problem comes when you want to work on most sites. They want to see a scaffolders card. This is an issue we started looking at with the ECITB tickets. I have always said the issue is just not ECITB but its any scaffolder with experience.
You should be able to take a skills test & enter the scheme at the correct stage. Be it part 1 , part 2 or Advanced.
I have been told that this is not possible due to the guys not having the correct training.
I got my Advanced card through the assessed route of entry. Not one days training. When do I lose mine? Or the other 10,000 odd guys that got their tickets this way.
I hope to have a meeting with the NASC / CISRS within the next two months to tackle this issue, then if I have no luck I will be looking at the legal side of things.
All we want is skill based assessment then you undertake the course you are qualified to do.
If you want to join the SCCR & don't have a pay pal account then e-mail sccr@sky.com & we will e-mail you a form & you can send a cheque or postal order.
Stewart Quinney
It is double edged.
The Industry does need formal training to be seen as a skilled trade.
The HSE recognised this & are keen to progress it being enforced.
At present you should be trained & ticketed. This could be done in house if you so wished.
The problem comes when you want to work on most sites. They want to see a scaffolders card. This is an issue we started looking at with the ECITB tickets. I have always said the issue is just not ECITB but its any scaffolder with experience.
You should be able to take a skills test & enter the scheme at the correct stage. Be it part 1 , part 2 or Advanced.
I have been told that this is not possible due to the guys not having the correct training.
I got my Advanced card through the assessed route of entry. Not one days training. When do I lose mine? Or the other 10,000 odd guys that got their tickets this way.
I hope to have a meeting with the NASC / CISRS within the next two months to tackle this issue, then if I have no luck I will be looking at the legal side of things.
All we want is skill based assessment then you undertake the course you are qualified to do.
If you want to join the SCCR & don't have a pay pal account then e-mail sccr@sky.com & we will e-mail you a form & you can send a cheque or postal order.
Stewart Quinney
Well put together letter Digsie. A problem I would foresee is, each European country have their own certification schemes. It would need each member state to come together to agree a common certification, which really is supposed to be what the EEC is about. I think the OFF hands could be tied here. On the other hand it could be relevant to the ECITB issue.
Garry Adams
Well-known member
Perhaps the Monopolies Commission would be interested ???
Competent Person ( para phrased )
A person who has sufficient Theoretical and Practical experience to identify patient faults and omissions and understand their significance and have the ability to recommend remedial and or corrective actions to repair the defects.
brandy is quite right in his quote---this would imply that a Scaffolder need only be capable and competent to erect Scaffolds to satisfy Statutory Law, no mention of Qualifications---therefore, would there be a case for discrimination if a CAPABLE and COMPETENT Scaffolder applied for a Job BUT was declined because he was not TRAINED and TICKETED ???.
Competent Person ( para phrased )
A person who has sufficient Theoretical and Practical experience to identify patient faults and omissions and understand their significance and have the ability to recommend remedial and or corrective actions to repair the defects.
brandy is quite right in his quote---this would imply that a Scaffolder need only be capable and competent to erect Scaffolds to satisfy Statutory Law, no mention of Qualifications---therefore, would there be a case for discrimination if a CAPABLE and COMPETENT Scaffolder applied for a Job BUT was declined because he was not TRAINED and TICKETED ???.
numbnuts
Well-known member
why not all just stop work for a week,and let the country grind to a halt,then someone might listen to us.and see what we are worth.you dont need qualifications to not work.
Sorry to be pedantic mate but the NASC is an acronym for 'National Access and Scaffolding Confederation'
Garry Adams
Well-known member
digsie
The original name was indeed the National Association of Scaffolding Contractors as established by Master Mariner Henry J Palmer and two others...
Dont know thy they changed the name ???---preferred the old name myself...
The original name was indeed the National Association of Scaffolding Contractors as established by Master Mariner Henry J Palmer and two others...
Dont know thy they changed the name ???---preferred the old name myself...
Oh I thought it North American space Cadets, didn't realise it was a scaffolding thingy,do you have to join ?
---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------
or what about "Need a scaffold certificate"
'National Association of Sarcastic C*nts'.....
celticbhoy
Moderator
its a monopoly........they are akin to a board of directors making a boardroom pact of non aggression and compliance,and these board members are extreamely well dug-in,will take some considerable time and effort to shead light on these characters.though good to see the trail starting,if the soviets could have glasnost then the nasc-cisrs should have openness good luck mate.
right!!! if you wana see hows competent with this cisrs get all the lads 18 to 30 how have a cisrs ticket part 2 or above and get them to go on a powerstation, or a industrial job or even a site where they do more than towers or independents throw them up on the steel or over the side of a building with a couple of hangers or canterlivers iam not saying all these lads are incable but theres a lot out there that cant do no more than a tower or independent unless they have supervision. but!!! are competent to do these jobs as they are cisrs ticketed. ive got lads that are more qualified than myself but take them away from the supervision and they no more than the basic scaffold jobs. yes in time they will gather exsperience the same as some poor sod thats been doing it a decade or 2 that cant get ticket status even though they have a ticket the whole systems b!llocks
