Maximum inside distance to inside standard.

S

steve gregory

Guest
Had a slight problem on site where the inside board had to be removed and transoms knocked back for renderers.

This leaves a gap of 275mm to wall from inside standard . With out reading all TG20 again what is the maximium gap allowed prior to an inside handrail being fitted . I thought on a light duty scaffold you was allowed a maximum gap of 300mm to allow a man to seated with his legs dangling.. I could be wrong but a little clarification would be a help.
 
Hi Steve,

We come across this problem all the time and have asked this question to all sorts of different people. According to the updated regs there is no gap permitted at all, but most health and safety inspectors still follow the old rule about as long as the gap is to narrow for a board it's ok. I don't think you would find the difinitive answer in tg20, I think it would be more the yellow citb manuals whose name I can't remember.:embarrest: Roughcasters are the worst on the planet for this request, they will always ask for a bigger and bigger gap to be formed then run for a lawyer to sue the pants of you when they fall down it.:mad: Once the alteration is done, hand it over making sure you spell out the fact that other fall prevention measures may be necessary.
 
Inside board gap

Hi

Good reply by aom

I think a gap of 300mm is too wide without inside handrails.

Okay it would be not easy for a person to fall through that gap, but it is possible.

Also at that width it is easy for an inside board to fall, so they would all need to be clipped.

Sure some of the H & S guys on here will have an opinion of what they think

All the best.

Chris Eng
 
cheers AOM so im going back to the where ever there is risk rule. it was picked up by an independant inspection company but on his last 4 visits never said a word and im starting to think this is a case of persicusion. well fit the handrails.. then our arses are covered. Cheers mukka..
 
Steve
Like everyone else we had this problem
we got around it by the main contractor agreeing and deeming the scaffold a permit to work area
and this seems to placate the safety police
 
Independent inspection companies, say's it all really. I know there is a couple on here but they have to find something to justify being there. I'm not blaming them as I would be the same if I had to sign off someone else's work. As long as the alteration is done on day works it should be no big deal.(and the roughcasters will hate it:cool:):bigsmile:
 
Normally o'k to adapt as you come down if you have bell cast.

But now you have industrial type units and flats that are k,rendered top to bottom in one!!

Permit to work if the best way forward, the renderer has still got to do the job. Just hope there is not an access for other trade to get in the building on these lifts, nightmare.

Also the trade undertaking the work will have to include this in their method statement as well so their guys would have to sign it & beware of any danger.

Ragscaff
 
As qualified professionals we cannot leave a scaffold in an unsafe manner by law. As this is a common problem with renderers i personally put the onus back on the agent and write on the handing over certificate that an inside handrail should be installed or the renderers wear a harness as there is a risk of a fall, and i wont hand the scaffold over until the agent signs the cert. This goes some way to eleviate the problem, but as we all know if there is a risk of a fall from above or below then we are liable and in the eyes of the law there are no excuses as that is why we have qualifications. I personally just try and go as far as i can in covering my own arse and i suggest all you guys do the same.
 
Racking my tiny brain for ages there, GE 500 manuals. CITB, NASC, SG04:05,SCCR, belly full of beer and a heid full of spanners, no wonder the information is so difficult to retrieve. The main contractor I do most of my work for wouldn't know a permit to work system if I cracked him on the chin with one, hence the hand-over spelling it out and as for the renderers, they have only just managed to spell their own name.
 
like wise we have this problem too , we normally put the onus on the contractor and recomment other fall prevention equipment
 
if its a rendering job I usually set out the inside standard 150mm(6") from the wall, no inside board, instead of 1/4 boards go for 5 if the site allows it. The only problem I have with rendering jobs is when the muppets rip out all the bracing or ties cos they struggle getting their buckets of muck around and complain when the scaffold starts to wobble, the amount of jobs that get pulled apart by other trades is just staggering.

The worst culprit I came across was "L" shaped run on the corners of a office block for painting, box ties through all the windows fully boarded 15 lifts for the glazers to take them out!!
 
To remove ties & bracing is illegal.

For one they are scaffolding & are not trained & ticketed.

If a tie is removed it has to have a replacement by way of window tie or raker etc depending on the size of job but this would be set out in the design in the first place or allowed for in the tie pattern.

You used to be able to remove the braces on the lift they were working off but then close access to all lifts above. Not sure if you can still or not? But then you get to K Render.

Have seen all braces removed from scaffolds in this case & then they wipe the k render all over the standards, rips your hands apart when stripping :cry:

When the design is done why do they not allow for these changes?

When new buildings are designed why do they not have tie points designed into them!
 
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steve gregory said:
Had a slight problem on site where the inside board had to be removed and transoms knocked back for renderers.

This leaves a gap of 275mm to wall from inside standard . With out reading all TG20 again what is the maximium gap allowed prior to an inside handrail being fitted . I thought on a light duty scaffold you was allowed a maximum gap of 300mm to allow a man to seated with his legs dangling.. I could be wrong but a little clarification would be a help.
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The Work at Height Regulations require that a platform shall be so constructed that its surface shall have no gaps unless suitable measures have been taken to protect persons against the risk of falling through, and against the risk of injury from materials or from other objects that might fall through the gap.

suitable measures being the operative word. permit to work is a measure, hand rail is a measure, wear a harness is a measure, but are they suitable? a robust risk assessment should tell you this and remember if there is an accident Mr HSE will be looking to see if suitable measures have been taken. If I were you I personally would reduce the gap to as small as possible, then write on my handover that "all operatives working on the scaffold should implement thier own safe system of work in place" The main contractor normally cracks a few walnuts between his arse cheeks when he has to sign it :D. I follow this up with an email putting the onus on the main contractor. Don't be bullied, get them to give you a written instruction to leave a gap of xxx. Your bases are pretty much covered.
 
so why not make the plasterers,brickies,joiners,etc,etc,etc,all wear an harness while they work on the scaffold,if it has to have room for them to render or plaster.:D
 
numbnuts said:
so why not make the plasterers,brickies,joiners,etc,etc,etc,all wear an harness while they work on the scaffold,if it has to have room for them to render or plaster.:D
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It's not for us to make them do it. It would be down to thier employer, and they will have to be trained to use the harness and the cost of buying and inspecting them. "suitable measures" It is not our problem it is thiers!!!
 
300mm is your best guide , although on the handing over certificate always ensure the principal contractor/client is responsible for 3rd parties working in this area
 
This subject just keeps on coming up on a regular basis on sites these days.

I think a lot of the problems lay with a lack of understanding from site managers/project managers/construction directors or whatever title they want to go by. When they get confused about what to do, all they do is point the finger back at the scaffolders about this sort of problem.

I always discuss fully all the options they have. ie. inside guardrails, restraint lanyards etc. Obviously a plasterer doing rendering needs a gap to work as does a chippy doing cladding. In my opinion, the site manager is responsible for 'how' the works is to be carried out and the scaffolder builds the scaffolding accordingly. Not the other way round, we build it then get ripped to fcuk for not having an appropriate working platform. As I said in another post, the lack of understanding from site management is apalling and we always seem to get the stick for it.

I dont think the training system helps much either, Im not 100% sure but I think on the part 1a or 1b course they still tell you a 300mm gap is permissible. Anyone confirm this?
 
Maxium gap we work too is 250mm to the edge of the first board on a scaffold with no inside boards , any bigger and we have to erect inside guardrails which tends to p*** off most trades . This measurment is dictated to us by the in house saftey officer employed by the company i work for at present
 
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