How much information do you need to design a scaffold?!

[AshReactive]

Being a designer, you can receive anything from a brief conversation and a fag packet sketch to a enormous amount of architects drawing that number in the hundreds, Does anybody ever get the right amount of information from their clients? Obviously a site visit helps but dealing with a nationwide client base they are always trying to avoid all the costs for that.

Also does anybody have any helpful advice on getting information out of clients who never seem to hand over enough information?

 

[Nick-CDS]

Getting info from clients get be like getting blood from a stone as far as temporary works goes. I've never had trouble with the big boys like Mace/Como, Ardmore etc. but when it comes to the smaller firms I usually end up lifting drawings from the planning portal website.

In lieu of drawings/visits I usually call the chaps on site and ask them to provide me with the relevant dimensions and/or photographs then its back to the good old days of counting bricks to fill in the gaps.

This is the only area of Engineering I've worked in where this has been a problem.

 

[AshReactive]

This is the only area of Engineering I've worked in where this has been a problem.

I put it down to the nature of scaffolding where the job isn't decided upon until it's actually up. I don't think any other area of engineering is like that, most buildings or other engineering work is, i presume, decided in advance.

With scaffolding this seems to be the case with very few jobs (Tender jobs seem to be the exception) . I find sometimes that i have to let people down when i give a five day turnaround when they were expecting it to be in there inbox yesterday.

 

[Nick-CDS]

I find the Tender jobs to be some of the most frustrating. Absolutely nobody (myself included) wants to do too much work just incase they don't get the job. Had one recently for an Atrium infill and the info I received was a brief Architects description. No drawings, photos; not even written dimensions! I actually laughed at it.

When I was dealing with the Civil/Structural side, the Engineer was directly involved in the project so the fees were taken up with the overall budget. I think with most jobs it's down to the Scaff to get the costings for any design work and if he is trying to cut it close to the bone, an Engineers fee can have a big impact on his quote.

 

[AshReactive]

Ha really that's a disgrace, In all honesty i meant the jobs that then go out for scaffold companies to tender off of, so everyone is pricing the same job.

I've started to advise all our customers to put the quote of the scaffold in and then put the design quote in as an extra if required. It can sometimes mean that the main client initially forgoes it. But if HSE turn up we get the work in the end.

 

[Nick-CDS]

Good idea. I turned your thread into a rant; sorry about that.

 

[aom]

I understand it's a big problem for you guys but it's just a big a problem for smaller scaffs like me. The last drawing we got done was mm perfect from an engineer who wasn't even in the same country as the job, a lot of people seem to think site visits are crucial to success but I believe with todays technology it is possible to produce a design scheme without leaving your office.

Information is king as with most things but if the scaff isn't giving it to you then his client isn't giving it to him, just a vicious circle. I have a basic job standing that does not need additional design but now they have what they asked for they now want me to extend the job to include a turret that really does require design. I thought about carrying it on using system but it really needs tube but trying to get a drawing of the building out of my client to give to the engineer is like drawing teeth.

It's a problem for all, but from my limited experience the success or failure is the quality of communication between scaff and engineer. If you break it down and tell us exactly what is required we will try and get it for you. If we tell you this is how we want to build it e.g, a pavement lift then a half lift then 5 lifts, don't then send me a drawing for 5 full lifts then whinge when you don't get paid.(sorry, that's another story)

Maybe if the client was better briefed about standard industry requirements both our lives would be so much easier.

 

[AshReactive]

Good idea. I turned your thread into a rant; sorry about that.

No problem Nick, My director gets just as heated about the subject. I see it as a massive problem causer within this line of work as well. however 'aom' has a point, I do jobs for clients in Angola and South Korea and because they provide the information you have no need to be anywhere near the job (which i guess if we're talking about South Korea is a good thing at the moment).

I guess I'm just trying to find out whether it's an industry wide problem or just a few of my regularly offending clients.

 

[Nick-CDS]

You're right on quite a few points there aom. For existing buildings I can get quite a bit of info from google earth and bing without having to take my arse off the chair (my favourite).

For new builds though its a different story. The trouble comes when the client only provides the information that *they* think is important instead of listening to the chaps on site and providing information packs just as they would for everyone else. It annoys us, the designers, because our job then becomes 4x harder which in turn annoys the scaffs because they want to get on with it but constantly have to wait for their drawings. Its an uphill struggle.

 

[aom]

Funny, I always just assumed the new builds would be a lot easier as you would have drawings coming out your ears of whatever they intended to build. That's another point though, how many times have you seen them changing the drawing by the time you have prepared the scheme?

Maybe the scaffs are less to blame and we can pass the buck to the contractors and client.

 

[Nick-CDS]

.../ Maybe the scaffs are less to blame and we can pass the buck to the contractors and client.

Thats the game plan. lol

We can get loads of drawings for new builds but they come with their own troubles. It'll be a rare occasion that we get them in CAD form; usually months old .pdfs from the initial planning stage with not a dimension or scale bar in site. That turns engineering into guessing. And more hold ups.

Sod this for lark. I'm moving to Algeria for a teaching position lol

 

[AshReactive]

Maybe the scaffs are less to blame and we can pass the buck to the contractors and client.

'aom' The Scaffs i've worked for and with are never to blame. I.e I have a client who does work for Railways and has recently handed over the reigns to a foreman/manager who just points me in the direction of his client, who in turn hasn't got a clue about scaffolding and hasn't got a clue what he wants, he just know what job he has to do.

I had a 13foot/4lift tower the other day that bounced back seven times due to me having to make up the building it was adjacent to and the client changing his mind about the specification without letting anybody know. In the end it was actually embarrassing.

 

[Nick-CDS]

.../ In the end it was actually embarrassing.

Thats the worst bit of it all. Every time the client changes their mind and doesn't tell all involed; just rejects the design and then people start thinking that you're the idiot.

 

[MattRobinson]

In my experience, the issue is with the quality not quantity of the info you get. Too much info can almost be as bad as not enough. Luckily though, the more closely you wok with someone, the better you understand what they have, and the more they understand what you need.

 

[aom]

'aom' The Scaffs i've worked for and with are never to blame. I.e I have a client who does work for Railways and has recently handed over the reigns to a foreman/manager who just points me in the direction of his client, who in turn hasn't got a clue about scaffolding and hasn't got a clue what he wants, he just know what job he has to do.

I had a 13foot/4lift tower the other day that bounced back seven times due to me having to make up the building it was adjacent to and the client changing his mind about the specification without letting anybody know. In the end it was actually embarrassing.

I must admit, I do recognise that scenario. Whose job is it or should it be to educate the client, and why would they order a scaffold without knowing what exactly they want? I have one on the go at the minute, a fair size job and not too shabby but they have no idea what they want, where they want it and what they intend to do when they get there, you can imagine the look on the designers face when I handed that little lot onto him.:laugh: I tried explaining that without the correct info they could end up with a huge scaffold they don't need and it looks like I may lose it to someone who doesn't really give a rats ass what it's up for and is willing just to do it, who is right and who is wrong?

 

[IDH]

Jobs are all pretty much the same and we always ask the same questions:
- How many boards / inside boards?
- What lift height?
- What is it going to be used for?
- Is it netted / sheeted?
- How were you planning to tie it?

Normally we get this without too much trouble - is a worry though if the Scaffolder doesn't know but has won the job on price already - and trust me that happens!

The rest we can normally work out and if we have to make assumptions because we can't get the info then we just state that on the dwgs so that everyone knows that we do not know. We're designers not magicians afterall...