Dinosaurs’ ?

R

ragscaff

Guest
Thread for the older guys.

Am I missing something or have we always scaffolded incorrectly.

Travelling to work this morning thinking about the current changes in TG 20 (well some of them). Have we been wrong all these years. The amount of ties in a job these days, the amount of kentledge & support towers needed on a temp roof!

200 trannies on a 4m loading bay!

When did all these factors come in to play? How many temp roofs have blown away?

How many loading bays have collapsed?

I think its gone way over the top now. I remember 10-12 lift towers all we did was pinch tie them! Temp roofs never had Kentledge or raker towers!

Last year I did a large roof, 80 tonne estimated total weight. We had to put around 20-30 tonne on support towers around the base.

Sway braces were put in to get up & down the scaffold.

I know times have changed but the materials put on a loading bay have not got any heavier so why three times the gear?

In these meetings when the changes are made is it the living next to the Jones effect!

Ragscaff
 
should of borrowed a couple of nasc wallets would of saved you loads of time on them towers m8 lol.
 
As a fully paid up Dinosaur,or an older guy, as you call us when you are being nice :D

The amount of gear in tempory roofs has gone through the roof pun intended
We all know when a designer does a drawing and puts his name to it he takes on all the responsabilities as regards failure of that structur.Human nature being what it is he will build in a good margin of error into his calcs to cover his own a r s e.

As for loading bays the largest reason for failure is poor ground conditions
the next is missuse of the loading bay once erected,by other trades
 
Rigger said:
As a fully paid up Dinosaur,or an older guy, as you call us when you are being nice :D

The amount of gear in tempory roofs has gone through the roof pun intended
We all know when a designer does a drawing and puts his name to it he takes on all the responsabilities as regards failure of that structur.Human nature being what it is he will build in a good margin of error into his calcs to cover his own a r s e.

As for loading bays the largest reason for failure is poor ground conditions
the next is missuse of the loading bay once erected,by other trades
Click to expand...

Hit the nail on the head there mate.
All about arse covering and not having the boney finger pointed at you when things do go wrong.

The only reasons Ive known for major failures of scaffolding is when other trades tamper with or abuse it. Obviously there are the odd cowboy job that causes issues but on the whole the responsible contractors jobs are safe, always have been, always will be.
 
one of the reasons all these extra materials are appearing is probably due to the fact that there is more and more people, companies and organisations with no scaffolding background jumping on the health n safety , working at heights band wagon to cream more an more money off the industry, using very good sales techniques quoting relevant legislation and reminding company directors, managers etc etc about corporate manslaughter and the no win no fee accident solicitors, they are talking themselves into lucrative contracts and creating excellent detailed drawings using lots an lots of equipment getting lots and lots of hire too
 
Dinosaurs

Hi

Have been in the game for 25 years so have seen some of the changes, but they are not all because of TG20.

The wind codes have changed from CP3 to BS6399 and are changing again. This has had the effect of increasing the wind loads on the structures which is why we have more loads to stop uplift and more ties. This is due to better knowledge of the wind effects and some increases due to climate change.

When you guys say that there were not problems with responsible companies in the past, then what about Kwikform in Cardiff, and many other collapses of scaffold with other major firms, even more recent small ones, some of which are shown on this forum. Not all were due to the client, some due to poor ties and dismantling procedures.

With regard the roofs as more are being built with Ali beams and plastic sheeting they need more to hold them down.

I have seen many loading towers with the ledgers bending, quite often due to overloading, but then as you are not there all the time to control the customer it is better to be safe than sorry.

You guys should be glad that the jobs are more controlled now. Takes out the element of the cowboys doing jobs at half the price and getting away with it.

Thanks for starting an interesting thread

Chris Eng:unsure:
 
I did not point the finger at designers, in general every Industry is going the same way. The only thing I see from day to day in construction, scaffolding getting targeted. I was out in the mid 80's when the big wind happened. If you see what we had in temp roofs then you know have three times that now & more.

I know as knowledge increases you have to go with changes but a lot of what I am talking about is down to insurance & covering your back!!

I have been putting scaffolds up for over 20 years, got my advanced card & now told to do advanced work I have to have a drawing. My card enables me to read drawings to an advanced stage. Does the designer have an advanced card to draw my design to an advanced standard so I can understand it!!:notrust:

Ragscaff
 
ragscaff said:
I did not point the finger at designers, in general every Industry is going the same way. The only thing I see from day to day in construction, scaffolding getting targeted. I was out in the mid 80's when the big wind happened. If you see what we had in temp roofs then you know have three times that now & more.

I know as knowledge increases you have to go with changes but a lot of what I am talking about is down to insurance & covering your back!!

I have been putting scaffolds up for over 20 years, got my advanced card & now told to do advanced work I have to have a drawing. My card enables me to read drawings to an advanced stage. Does the designer have an advanced card to draw my design to an advanced standard so I can understand it!!:notrust:

Ragscaff
Click to expand...


yeah and how many times do they do a drawing and dont allow for staircases
and plant in the way.
 
Remember when i started,was given a hammer and chisel to chase a putlog sized hole out off the front of a house,so the scaff could put in a putlog and force it down for a pressure tie,,lot cheaper than hiltis lol..
 
Chriss
I was not having a go at the designers for building in a margin of redudancy
merely saying that it was human nature as well as good commercial practice
to cover your a r s e and your companies

Your statement
"You guys should be glad that the jobs are more controlled now. Takes out the element of the cowboys doing jobs at half the price and getting away with it."

Sadly it does not take out the cowboys outfits It plays into thier hands by the time the responsable company pays for drawings , extra materials, extra transport, and extra labour costs the price is that much higher the client think you are taking the urine.

The way to get rid of the cowboy outfits is for the HSE is to stop finding small faults and trangressions with the companies that are trying thier best to comply with legislation and to have a blitz on the cowboys that do not give a toss.

I pass abortions of scaffold on a daily basis in a very wide area,It is rampant the only reason it goes on is the failure of the HSE to investigate and prosecute the cr*p that pretend to be scaffold contractors. Drive the SCUM from our industry:mad:
 
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Bang on there Rigger. Was going to say the same thing myself.

I think I speak for all the sensible scaffs on that do understand the need for a majority of the changes, but it does give the impression that all scaffolds were inherintly dangerous before TG20. Of course they were not.

The main problem I think is where management outside of the scaffolding industry or over zealous contractors put their own spin on how they interpret all the new regs and rules, which in turn makes our lives hell.
 
Dinsoaurs again

Hi Dave

I think you have got it there.

We have had some of our customers saying that they need a design for anything over 2 lifts high ???? Why. ???

I think the scaffolding industry in the UK has been the best and safest in the world. Sure one of our H & S specialist on here could confirm with stats.

It is a shame that the customers seem to be taking away the knowledge and skills of the advanced/ experienced scaffolders.

Chris Eng
 
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