BS5973 and TG20:08

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Bob Bartlett

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Hi Guys, I would be very interested to learn your opinions as scaffolders, supervisors or managers in the industry regarding TG20:08 and, if you can recall it, how it compares to the system which operated under BS:5973.

Please feel free to email me direct if you prefer this to posting on the Forum.

Thanks
 
I think the powers that be just make stuff up.. if not they would be out of work..
 
Hi joebag, As I see it TG20:08 and its HSE approval has resulted in a major change to the industry as I knew it and I'm trying to get some idea of the effects of the change on the work of you guys at all levels in the front line.
After a lifetime in the industry, I am genuinely interested in the subject but have yet to see it discussed anywhere ......or have I missed the thread?
 
TG20:08 was the best compromise that the NASC could make with the HSE. The alternative being the HSE would have commissioned the guidance documents for scaffolding! - I know what I would prefer.

Either way, TG20:13 is due for release next year, so hopefully that should make things a little bit easier for everyone, if they manage to iron out the current problems that the industry is experiencing with 08.
 
tea time tonight im sure a few of the Dinosaurs will wake from their slumber and give you a far better opinion than mine mate:D,theres a search option on the forum so keywords might flag up some old threads for you:idea:
 
Thanks for your post phil181. Would it be possible for you to describe any problems with 08 as you see them?
 
Roberthorse said:
Hi joebag, As I see it TG20:08 and its HSE approval has resulted in a major change to the industry as I knew it and I'm trying to get some idea of the effects of the change on the work of you guys at all levels in the front line.
After a lifetime in the industry, I am genuinely interested in the subject but have yet to see it discussed anywhere ......or have I missed the thread?
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Think you may have missed the thread Robert it has been a hot topic on here since it's conception but welcome to the forum anyway. Most designers I speak to tell me that not a lot has actually changed it's just that we were either unaware off or just simply didn't follow the old 5973. With the change in wind codes and the like it may mean more to the designers but for me the only real change is having to put a plan brace in to continue using single bay sways and maybe the tie pattern. The clamour for proof of compliance is a bit of a thorn in the side as is installing simple beam work and the need for a drawing for what most would call simple structures.
 
Roberthorse said:
Thanks for your post phil181. Would it be possible for you to describe any problems with 08 as you see them?
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The problem is simple mate - The industry is being dictated to by a bunch of meddling, unqualified, bureaucratic manadarins (HSE) who's sole purpose in this instance is to stick their beak into an industry that they do not understand, just to justify their very existence.

Public sector workers like the HSE just cannot understand that an industry like construction requires rapid turnaround times on pretty much everything and that principal contractors with mega turnovers and a catchy safety slogan are not interested in waiting a week (or even a couple of days) for a scaffold design or amendment. It's hard enough getting a design brief from the client, so we're being asked to flout BS5975 and CDM before we've even started!

So basically, there are not enough standard scenrio's available to allow scaffolding contractors to work to a reactive nature or alter things on a site with a rapid turnaround - Which is basically what scaffolding contractors are employed to do.
 
F*ck it heres my pennies worth,,,,,,,,,,,IF, the basic premise around this was safety and better working practises then even if the money went down especially for lads on price work,it would be seen as a neccesary evil by some and welcomed by others.
The major problem i see with it is the Link between certain Nasc and Hse Bigwigs and the System scaffold firms they used to, and in some cases still do represent.
They are basically forcing the tube and fitting blokes out of the Industry by bringing in unworkable and unproffitable changes to the tube and fitting game,turning it into a SCARY health and safety issue wheras the underlying reasons are to bring in Cheaper Labour on part 1 or system tickets,
to Erect there own sytems and Create a Closed Cartel.

Its a F*ckin Con of Epic Proportions and No-ones buying it!:mad:
 
joebag said:
F*ck it heres my pennies worth,,,,,,,,,,,IF, the basic premise around this was safety and better working practises then even if the money went down especially for lads on price work,it would be seen as a neccesary evil by some and welcomed by others.
The major problem i see with it is the Link between certain Nasc and Hse Bigwigs and the System scaffold firms they used to, and in some cases still do represent.
They are basically forcing the tube and fitting blokes out of the Industry by bringing in unworkable and unproffitable changes to the tube and fitting game,turning it into a SCARY health and safety issue wheras the underlying reasons are to bring in Cheaper Labour on part 1 or system tickets,
to Erect there own sytems and Create a Closed Cartel.

Its a F*ckin Con of Epic Proportions and No-ones buying it!:mad:
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Even though the President of the NASC is the CEO of the biggest independently owned scaffolding contractor in the UK who use almost solely tube & fitting scaffolding on their jobs - apart from a few Haki staircases as required?

That pretty much blows that argument out of the water mate...
 
One man,aiming towards a future of system gear,plenty in the hierachy who have conflicts of interest mate,can name ten firms who have folded theyre tube gear for scrap,started again in system,scrap values are great and interest free system gear over five ten years is becoming increasingly popular,NASC is a Profit organisation with a hold over the HSE,regulations for profit are becoming more and more prevallent,had a guy called ---- Clarke give us and update on TG2008,said what they were aiming for was no lapping boards on the corner of tube scaffolds because of trip hazards,i could go on but seriously mate do you think that the premise behind this is for Safety and Working practises or Profit,we are turning into Orwells 1984 and im sick of being told to be fearful and scared of everything so some C*nt or Politician in a suit can make a healthy Profit and keep the Working Man from making his own slice of the pie,they **** themselves when we all started to accumulate a few houses and wealth and this is another example of Scaremongering for Profit,ahhhh thats better:sick:
 
joebag said:
One man,aiming towards a future of system gear,plenty in the hierachy who have conflicts of interest mate,can name ten firms who have folded theyre tube gear for scrap,started again in system,scrap values are great and interest free system gear over five ten years is becoming increasingly popular,NASC is a Profit organisation with a hold over the HSE,regulations for profit are becoming more and more prevallent,had a guy called ---- Clarke give us and update on TG2008,said what they were aiming for was no lapping boards on the corner of tube scaffolds because of trip hazards,i could go on but seriously mate do you think that the premise behind this is for Safety and Working practises or Profit,we are turning into Orwells 1984 and im sick of being told to be fearful and scared of everything so some C*nt or Politician in a suit can make a healthy Profit and keep the Working Man from making his own slice of the pie,they **** themselves when we all started to accumulate a few houses and wealth and this is another example of Scaremongering for Profit,ahhhh thats better:sick:
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I respect your opinion mate, but personally I think you are reading too much into it and convincing yourself that a conspiracy is happening that doesn't exist.

If you want to be talking about a fair wage for the working man, then maybe you want to ask the labour party why they let our borders and job market open to millions of cheap east europeans who are (amongst other things) happily slashing up scaffolding on our construction sites for £75 a day...
 
The problem that i see with our industry is that we're being constantly monitered by an army of penpushers who've never lifted a spanner in their lives,they dictate all these safety measures at us and they've no experience of the practicalities involved,and we all know it's only an *rse covering exercise for them with no room at all for error for us,and why the feck have we gone with european norm?when the rest of europe just carry's on as usual,we had british standard,which i for one much preffered:suspicious:
 
joebag said:
One man,aiming towards a future of system gear,plenty in the hierachy who have conflicts of interest mate,can name ten firms who have folded theyre tube gear for scrap,started again in system,scrap values are great and interest free system gear over five ten years is becoming increasingly popular,NASC is a Profit organisation with a hold over the HSE,regulations for profit are becoming more and more prevallent,had a guy called Mark Clarke give us and update on TG2008,said what they were aiming for was no lapping boards on the corner of tube scaffolds because of trip hazards,i could go on but seriously mate do you think that the premise behind this is for Safety and Working practises or Profit,we are turning into Orwells 1984 and im sick of being told to be fearful and scared of everything so some C*nt or Politician in a suit can make a healthy Profit and keep the Working Man from making his own slice of the pie,they **** themselves when we all started to accumulate a few houses and wealth and this is another example of Scaremongering for Profit,ahhhh thats better:sick:
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?
 
phil181 said:
I respect your opinion mate, but personally I think you are reading too much into it and convincing yourself that a conspiracy is happening that doesn't exist.

If you want to be talking about a fair wage for the working man, then maybe you want to ask the labour party why they let our borders and job market open to millions of cheap east europeans who are (amongst other things) happily slashing up scaffolding on our construction sites for £75 a day...
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ps phil theres plenty of british born knocking htem up for far less round here and not threw choise :sad2: lol

bigfish said:
The problem that i see with our industry is that we're being constantly monitered by an army of penpushers who've never lifted a spanner in their lives,they dictate all these safety measures at us and they've no experience of the practicalities involved,and we all know it's only an *rse covering exercise for them with no room at all for error for us,and why the feck have we gone with european norm?when the rest of europe just carry's on as usual,we had british standard,which i for one much preffered:suspicious:
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thats it bf why are we leading the way and no other country is following in the eu its rong like marra
 
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