Temp roof issues

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regfenster

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Hi I was wondering if any of you scaffs out their could help.

For A bit of background we have 3 temp roof structures located in the army barracks at Aldershot over old stock military housing. The initial contract from memory was for 4/6 weeks, they now have been their this christmas 4 years!

We carry out a once weekly inspection report and then sign it off via a scafftag. Recently the contractor Aspire Defence has red carded us on many issues which we intend to address next week, as they seem to have us over a barrow with their legal team. The structures themselves have no visible signs of movement bearing in mind they've been hit by falling trees, hurricanes and alot of snow over the years. one issue that is causing me to scratch my head is that their independant survey suggests that the beam should be fixed by 6 load bearing couplers from both the inside and outside ledger(12 doubles in total per end), yet the beam only has 2 node points, the top and bottom of the beam, can any shed some light on what the hell this HSE guy is on about? also the beam spacing averages out at 2m(8ft) one or two beams fall at around 2.2m with which is another issue, although the pearlings equate to 4 per 10 ft tin sheet. Without stripping the roof back would you fancy my chances if needed trying to slide another beam(2x26ft) under the tin lid to close the gap between beams if I cannot convince their HSE otherwise?

All in all a effing knightmare!, you thoughts will be appreciated. sorry about the wall of text
 
i would go back to him and ask him to list the reasons why you need to do all that , then seek advice on his answers , we have had ***** like this before , sounds like me an attempt to knock back the hire fees , if he quotes new regs tg20 ect then go back and charge extra as was erected to bs5973
 
why has it taken them 4 years to find this out was the roof done to a design ? i would give them a price to strike and re-erect the roof to there requirements , how about putting in a spine beam to take out some of the weight or use a beam as your flier ledger
 
Cheers for the advice, unfortunately we have to do this out of our own pocket, their legal has put in writing that rentals paid to date have been fraudulent due to these issues and as far as they're concerned until we rectifiy they own the scaffold and will not continue paying rentals until we have made the changes. I could argue that the roofs have performed to the original remit, that is to weather proof the buildings that suffer from nail fatigue.
The scaffolds were not designed, although the contractor was supplied with a set of engineers calculations based on site visit, put it this way they're in well within and above recommended tolarances for this structure.

Another is I have is the status of the sole/base boards although not rotten they're well weathered, which the HS **** wants me to change, if we known at the outset that they'ed be here this long I would have supplied a hardwood variant, Im going to raise the foot tie and try a 20t bottle jack just to take weight and beat new base board alongside with a 6lb sledge hammer, wish me luck, there is a whole host of other niggles but to honest most of them are pathetic, such as rusting toe board clips etc
 
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Cant you double up the standards with new sole pads next to the existing ones! As long as they go through two ledgers would be fine.
 
sounds like they want the scaffold for free , wouldnt think they had a leg to stand on with the fraudulent issue to be honest , id agree with what ragscaff says and just do what you can mate , bunch of mugs aint they
 
thats what i would do Ragscaff but run the standards up to the flier ledger and this will help transfer the load from the roof back to the ground, trouble is they are gonna keep finding silly little things wrong but if you are on a good x hire rate then who gives a ****
good luck with it mate
 
regfenster said:
Hi I was wondering if any of you scaffs out their could help.

For A bit of background we have 3 temp roof structures located in the army barracks at Aldershot over old stock military housing. The initial contract from memory was for 4/6 weeks, they now have been their this christmas 4 years!

We carry out a once weekly inspection report and then sign it off via a scafftag. Recently the contractor Aspire Defence has red carded us on many issues which we intend to address next week, as they seem to have us over a barrow with their legal team. The structures themselves have no visible signs of movement bearing in mind they've been hit by falling trees, hurricanes and alot of snow over the years. one issue that is causing me to scratch my head is that their independant survey suggests that the beam should be fixed by 6 load bearing couplers from both the inside and outside ledger(12 doubles in total per end), yet the beam only has 2 node points, the top and bottom of the beam, can any shed some light on what the hell this HSE guy is on about? also the beam spacing averages out at 2m(8ft) one or two beams fall at around 2.2m with which is another issue, although the pearlings equate to 4 per 10 ft tin sheet. Without stripping the roof back would you fancy my chances if needed trying to slide another beam(2x26ft) under the tin lid to close the gap between beams if I cannot convince their HSE otherwise?

All in all a effing knightmare!, you thoughts will be appreciated. sorry about the wall of text
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Hi regfenster

If the roofs has been up for 4 years, they will probably need planning permission !
But as others have said, tell them it was erected to BS5973, and because its been up so long past the original period, the current guidance notes did not apply, and now you will have to charge them to take it down and re-erect to their revised requirements.
Hopefully after 4 years extra hire, you will have made enough out of this job by now.
If they do go legal on you, you can get a reverse design by an engineer, who could hopefully prove the structure was suitable for its original purpose.
 
regfenster said:
Hi I was wondering if any of you scaffs out their could help.

For A bit of background we have 3 temp roof structures located in the army barracks at Aldershot over old stock military housing. The initial contract from memory was for 4/6 weeks, they now have been their this christmas 4 years!

We carry out a once weekly inspection report and then sign it off via a scafftag. Recently the contractor Aspire Defence has red carded us on many issues which we intend to address next week, as they seem to have us over a barrow with their legal team. The structures themselves have no visible signs of movement bearing in mind they've been hit by falling trees, hurricanes and alot of snow over the years. one issue that is causing me to scratch my head is that their independant survey suggests that the beam should be fixed by 6 load bearing couplers from both the inside and outside ledger(12 doubles in total per end), yet the beam only has 2 node points, the top and bottom of the beam, can any shed some light on what the hell this HSE guy is on about? also the beam spacing averages out at 2m(8ft) one or two beams fall at around 2.2m with which is another issue, although the pearlings equate to 4 per 10 ft tin sheet. Without stripping the roof back would you fancy my chances if needed trying to slide another beam(2x26ft) under the tin lid to close the gap between beams if I cannot convince their HSE otherwise?

All in all a effing knightmare!, you thoughts will be appreciated. sorry about the wall of text
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I think the only way you would be able to fix each beam with 6 load bearing fitting's would be doubles on the bottoms of the beams to the ledgers and swivels off the srandards projeting past the beams to the top of the beam (4 fittings), the standards would have to be in line from front of building to back of building, also each beam should be braced up from the supporting standard ( 2 fittings ) .This would give you 6 load bearing fittings to each beam.

The best thing to do would be to get a designer to give you calcs for what is there at present ,try Ben Beaumont at 48.3 design, really good with a great degree. The change accordingly,lets face it lawyers will never argue with somebody who has better qualifications than them.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

TG20:08 won't come into it neither will bs5973 as this is a design saffold and you should have had a design when ereting it initialy. Get a design now and some calcs and adjust accordingly,take back control of the situation then you will be able to legitamatley claim for what your entitled too and the ball will once again be in their court.
 
thought you was on holiday mate , or are you bored already and the bar not yet open !!!!!!!!!!!
 
regfenster said:
Hi I was wondering if any of you scaffs out their could help.

For A bit of background we have 3 temp roof structures located in the army barracks at Aldershot over old stock military housing. The initial contract from memory was for 4/6 weeks, they now have been their this christmas 4 years!

We carry out a once weekly inspection report and then sign it off via a scafftag. Recently the contractor Aspire Defence has red carded us on many issues which we intend to address next week, as they seem to have us over a barrow with their legal team. The structures themselves have no visible signs of movement bearing in mind they've been hit by falling trees, hurricanes and alot of snow over the years. one issue that is causing me to scratch my head is that their independant survey suggests that the beam should be fixed by 6 load bearing couplers from both the inside and outside ledger(12 doubles in total per end), yet the beam only has 2 node points, the top and bottom of the beam, can any shed some light on what the hell this HSE guy is on about? also the beam spacing averages out at 2m(8ft) one or two beams fall at around 2.2m with which is another issue, although the pearlings equate to 4 per 10 ft tin sheet. Without stripping the roof back would you fancy my chances if needed trying to slide another beam(2x26ft) under the tin lid to close the gap between beams if I cannot convince their HSE otherwise?

All in all a effing knightmare!, you thoughts will be appreciated. sorry about the wall of text
Click to expand...

Just have it re-engineered mate. If your enigineer can prove the structure can cope with the reactions then that's fine - If not you'll probably have to make good.
I'm sure 4 years of extra hire would cover the dismantle costs anyway!
 
Sounds to me like they are trying to pull a fast one wa***** erected in old regs H/S quotin new ones, I agree with Hatterscaff tell them if they want it perfect strip and rearect to new regs with design and everything watch them gulp then.
 
yeh make sure you double ya price from 4 years ago !! , was erected to BS5973 so now they want it to TG20 , youl need a design as well - piss taking wankers
 
Not much else to add to this one, it's very easy to sit on the key board and give advice, different kettle of fish when it's your customer threatening legal action. We had a similar situation a year or two ago but a simple site inspection from a structural engineer and a written report was enough to see them off. What ever you decide is best for you I hope you manage to sort it soon as I do know the feeling. Good Luck.
 
That's what I was going to say, get a design as close to what you have up as you can do what bits you need then include design charge into weekly rent
 
cheers lads, some great advice, I'll have a look at their inspection report tomorrow when Im onsite, I'll keep you informed with any progress as and when it happens
 
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ha ha , u wanna be carefull publishing that , there was another scaff outfit recently done for conning the MOD !!! They all got birded off

Sounds like a nice earner , keep ya cool mate - thats pure profit
 
scaffy said:
ha ha , u wanna be carefull publishing that , there was another scaff outfit recently done for conning the MOD !!! They all got birded off

Sounds like a nice earner , keep ya cool mate - thats pure profit
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Trying buddy to keep cool
 
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I doubt the safety inspector or HSE inspector has carried out structural checks of the temporary roof. If the beam is fixed with 6 load bearing couplers then this suggests that each beam is transmitting 36kN (over 3.5 tonnes) into the supporting scaffold. Unlikely in other words.
As other people have suggested the simple solution is to get the checked out and designed to the latest wind codes.
Please note though that temporary roofs are not designed to BS5973 or TG20:08. They are designed from first principles using wind load codes (BS6399 has been withdrawn recently). By saying the roof has been built to BS5973 is factually incorrect.

I know a freelance QS who will check over your contract and advise on how you stand with this contractually.

Let me know if I can help.


Stuart Salmon
TR Services
 
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