Losing out on jobs to uninsured cowboys

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toppingout

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I have my own small scaffold business and feel that I am missing out on a lot of
jobs to uninsured scaffolders running round in pickups and quoting ludicrous prices e.g back and front of a typical terrace house for roof repairs £240 just like to find out if anyone else having same problems
 
We have the same problem down here in Oxfordshire..One notorious outfit put up some shocking jobs..I have known a roofing scaffold come away from the building as a lad stepped off it..
Problem is in this climate customers just look at the bottom line,not actually what they are getting for their money.
 
Its all over the country, i priced a job the other day and was 18k a NASC company was 22k and by bugger they had a price in at 6k.....These companys will be working and the companys who are insurued and have skilled men will strugel this year.You can only rely on that if you have all your hse in place and you have the accident your covered mate, Try not to do there type of work. we lost another job the other day and when i spoke to the customer he said who and and what price they gave, i said go and look at a job just down the road and ask the builder there what they are like, were putting the job up next week. It realy is the way forward were the cliant goes and looks at our work and then looks at the other firms who are pricing the same job. The cliant thought a 12m long and 8 meter high scaffold on soft ground would have sole boards under the standards and should be drilled to the wall. HSE dont want to know just make sure your right on with your own work. companys ive heard of and im right at the bottom of the country kna in oxford mmm i was up that way and we have all got these firms to price against. keep smiling
 
Hi and Welcome To The Scaffolders Forum!

Best Regards

SF Admin
 
Do you know for definate they are not insured?

If so, contact client/people they are working for and tell them...even better report them to the HSE complete with a handy photo or 2, they may not get a visit but Im positive they will get a call and a letter asking them to explain themselves, that way at least they will be on the HSE's radar should something else happen.
 
Something we are looking at very closely, this situation is all over the country making it hard to move the industry forward.

Councils need to make a stand on this as well as I've seen some of these cowboy firms tender on council work!!

Not going to be easy but some things got to be done!!

Stewart Quinney
SCCR Chairman

P.S Sorry welcome aboard
 
Often wondered as insurance companies are losing out on business by firms not insuring that they through their association would look into this. Afterall we give them the business and its to their benefit to keep us in business. They are a powerfull lobbying group so I think they should do more to help their clients.
 
This is a very difficult issue for insurance companies and brokers to be involved in - Insurance brokers act as advisors to the industry and will help firms with their insurance should they contact us. I would stress that if you know for certain that a company is trading without proper insurance and they employ anyone, then they are breaking the law and could face heavy fines or imprisonment. I agree that more could be done, and if anyone has ideas that can be put into place - let us know.
Below is an email sent to Ragscaff recently regarding insurance coverage.....
In the eyes of an insurer, it makes no real difference if you are paid under CIS, PAYE or other – if they have control (master / servant) on site then automatically you are defined as an employee. Some policies will show either



Bona Fide Sub Contractors Clause – which allow the policyholder to use sub contractors provided they have a set limit of insurance in place (generally £1m)

Sub Contractors Warranty – which again allows the policy holder to use either Labour Only or Bona Fide, providing the Labour Only are competent in the role required



The problem arises when the broker involved does not know the clear definition between the two sub contractors, and more importantly wants to get a cheaper price. Insurance companies do not charge for Bona Fide Sub Contractors whereas Labour Only’s are priced same as PAYE Scaffolders.



This is why I would estimate that 70% of firms are under insured or wrongly covered. But when it is highlighted that they should be paying more this usually ends in them opting for a cheaper option.



In most of the Construction and Contracting sectors, it is easy to define Bona Fide Sub Contractors for example –



Roofing Contractors will sub contract Scaffolders, Skip Hire etc

Builders will sub contract to Plant Hire, Demolition, Scaffolders, Roofers etc



But Scaffolders are ‘labour intensive’ and although the majority of the workforce are (in the eyes of the taxman) Bona Fide they are all effectively employees. The only exception would be if, for example, ABC Scaffolding Ltd priced a job but asked XYZ Scaffolding Ltd to erect and dismantle for a fee using their own gear.



Trust this helps?
 
Cowboy oufits will always get the private sector work for roofing and building companys of the same nature. Thats the way it has always been and will be until the hse stamp down on these type of contractors. All they are interested in is the lowest price to get the work. Sometimes you have just got to bite the bullet and go in cheaper than you normally would to get your self established. Sticks in the throat but sometimes its gotta be done. Good luck with your business
 
Hi Every one heres one i priced against a local firm who priced a job at £1.66 m2, it was 22 m long and 8m high. YIP £292.16,Took them 3 men one day to put up. How can you compete against a company who only have 2 out of the 9 employees with tickets?
I can only hope that HSE and Insurance companys and the council get there act together and try a littel bit harder to take the bad companys out.
There should be a noumber to phone were there is some action taken on the rough scaffolders who dont even put a sole board under the scaffolding or use the right trained staff. I know wat your going to say PHONE HSE though there only intrested in when the accident happens. WOOPS TOO LATE....You cant keep going in cheap and if any firm can work to that meteradge we all will be shutting the gates.
 
I refuse to undercut anyone , i price my work for what we can do it for and if someone undercuts e then so be it .It is ridicules what some company's are pricing work at but the way i see it is if there genuine company's having a hard time and undercut everyone to win work then they wont be around for much longer anyway as they are only putting of the inevitable. And if they are a cowboy outfit then all they can ever get is cash in hand jobs for peanuts as no bona fide building company can use these cowboys as they are un-insured etc etc so all we are losing out on is the small private sector.
So if everyone prices there work fairly and stops trying to match these cowboys then
the industry will pick up again :)
 
I beg to differ sorry if you had no work and had men and bills to pay 10pence is better than a hole in the pocket.
Its how big a hole in the pocket can we afford. WE are lucky to have good cliants and been around now as a ltd company for 11 years though we are still growing the company and still trying to keep up with the Hse costs towards the company the cheap boys dont and thats were they will still be here and some companys will go tits up through trying to do the Hse and have the trained staff and have the insurance. Theres a company just up from us were the Boss FAILED his PART 1 the other day and they have been going for years and they advertise nothing over 45ft and NO VAT what...
If the Hse wants us all to abid to the rules there should be and must be rules set in place for even the private jobs for us this is our bread and butter... I hope theres an answer though i cant see it. Nasc is a closed shop and the Hse dont care and the small builders dont want to pay the money. The banks dont leand any money and the tax man wants his shear and the lads want holidays yee ha good old England...
 
I still wont undercut mate and i been in business for 16 years now, if you are relying on house fronts unless you can get shi t loads of them like a council contract then you will take forever to build up a company. I always say 1 good job is better then 5 sh it jobs , i have taken on labour only work more then once to keep my company going i aint going to work for nothing if the pikey firms want to then good luck to them :)
 
Our triangel of work dictates the work in the area as me grandad use to say you can only have a Certon amount of spuds in one area of ground. With all the companys going under and even DSL pulling out of our area the lads who worked for them are setting up and going in so cheap, there actualy not making fule money if they had to do it properly.
The London market and area is greater than here and we do have some large contracts on and even bigger ones coming though i see even Nasc companys working to a very low m2 and thats wen we half to cut the cloth to suit the potato bag as they say down ere. Im like you if theres money in it its worth ago, if theres no money in it you get out.
 
I priced a job a few year ago and gave the same price to 3 different mechanical contractors each of which I get work off regularly. A 4th came on the scene with a lower price and got the job and brought in another scaffolding co. It ended up a nightmare for both the mechanical co and the scaffolding co, as they did'nt know what they were getting into. On this plant it will take nearly twice as long to do a job due to restrictions on permits, over the top safety, etc etc, but you allow for it in your price and its accepted. The problem for them was they went in cheap to get the job not knowing the standards that would be required, cowboys would not be the word, but probably more used to working to a lower standard, both are now gone out of business. It ended up that I was paid by the factory owners to take down the remaining scaffolding, a few grands worth and got to keep it. Undercutting seldom turns a profit,
 
I totally agree brandy all undercutting does is drive the prices down for every one , i priced a small house front in Fulham right on our door step so it came to £320 a firm driving nearly 50 miles done it for £180 man did i laugh its gonna cost them £80 in fuel alone and they gotta come back and take it down what is the point you cant make money doing stupid things like that. We lost one last year we priced at £18,000 and kept it nice and tight as it was for a regular customer some doughnut comes along and does it for £10,000 wages alone came to £8500 i was asked to match them and said NO it is not financially viable let them have it , i think a lot of firms are just buying the jobs to get in with the main contractors thinking they will get it back on extras and the like but that dont happen to often these days
 
of course they have allan and people do what they need to ,but what iam saying is let them have that small cash work why worry about under cutting them at silly prices. until they get Insurance and become bona fide they can only tender for small work.
 
Thats true Alan, A firm just starting out goes in low to get the work, if their lucky they might break even. The problem then is the contractor wants the next job for the same rates, you never grow. If you cant give him the same rate, he goes to the next start up. It ends up a race to the bottom and a knock on effect, cheap labour, no good for anyone but the contractor.
 
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