How much to do you?

I'd be interested to see the responses to this post. I have been reviewing this very topic and as always have an opinion :)
 
Street slashers, it doesn't take a good scafolder to throw loads of gear into a job. It takes a good one to know when theres enough.
 
Alan Reade said:
I'd be interested to see the responses to this post. I have been reviewing this very topic and as always have an opinion :)
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Please note all norms include paperwork, breaks, weekly TBT, toilet visits etc. Only thing not included is inclement weather, safety stops. Norms based on materials being within reasonable proximity to actual job. Not street work but industrial work. Weather very hot and humid.

For a general purpose (medium duty) scaffold under 10 metres high.

In the Gulf.
Frame: 3 cubic metres per man hour erect inclusive of handrail and ties.
Decking: 6 square metres per man hour erect including lashing and toeboards.

Dismantle @ twice as much per man hour.

In Australia.
Frame: 2 cubic metres per man hour erect inclusive of handrail and ties.
Decking: 4 square metres per man hour erect including lashing and toeboards.

Dismantle @ 1.5 as much per man hour.

Would be good to get a comparison from the UK and obviously your esteemed opinion Alan.
 
Morning HSWT,
Somewhat surprised by the lack of correspondence on this one to be honest.
Pricing by Cubic Meters has been very popular with Customers in the ME but I have no clue why.
m3 is somewhat OK with Birdcage but has no bearing on Independent scaffolds, or Hangers.

I am acutely aware that more and more Customers are sending take off schedules with their enquires but they show total m3 or m2 some do not indicate a scaffold lengths widths or heights but they all expect you to return a price based upon a typical m3/m2 rate
Many ask for a breakdown “Erect”, “Dismantle” & “Hire”

There is more to this but I would still be interested in the opinions of others.

I may expand my hypothesis upon further input from the Members.

(With regards "Street Slashers" the price should have little to nothing to do with being a good or bad Scaffolder as the price will be decided long before the labour arrive on site.)

Come on guys, Cash is King but Knowledge is power.
Regards Alan
 
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Evening Alan,
Yes I would have thought there would have been more feedback too.
I used to differentiate between birdcages and towers (m3) and independents and hangers (m2). Here all frames are measured as m3 and decking as m2 with just a different rate for scaffolds by height, engineered scaffolds and "special" which are hangers and cantilevers. Very few independents are done in the industrial sector here and scaffolds are hung wherever possible to allow access for civils etc.
I used to incorporate a minimum dimension also but that does not apply here either.
 
My thoughts on pricing scaffolds using standard rates:

M3 for birdcage or m2 for access takes no account of what is in the way, it takes no account of how high the starting point is off the base level, it takes no account of how high the scaffold is and it takes no account of the size of the scaffold be it one large scaffold or a number of small ones. M3 or M2 takes no account of grid sizes or scaffold requirements.

Lets assume a standard cuplok grid of 2.5m x 2.5m x 2.0m lifts.

Example 1: 15,000m3 birdcage @ 6m high = 50x50m on plan
One big birdcage = 441 legs and 3,360 horizontals
Example 2: 15,000m3 birdcage @ 6m high = 50x50m on plan
This time 10m x 10m x 25 number = 625 legs and 7,500 horizontals

Around twice the equipment, transport and labour for the same money. This would only be compounded if the grid is closed down to fit into a gap.

The same logic would apply to and scaffold where a general volume is given.

The same can be said about high scaffolds verses low scaffolds.

For instance a 10m long scaffold @ 2m high has a kicker and a first lift so the cost of the kicker is in the m2 rate/ 20 sq m
Same 10 m scaffold only now 10m high has the cost of the kicker spread over 100 Sq m

There are many different variations on the theme but they all amount to the same answer, standard rates do not apply to all scaffolds and as such should not be applied to all scaffolds.

It would seem I could ramble on, on the subject :)
 
Some good points there Alan.
I understand about the material but was really getting at the actual labour norms than pricing as a whole.
Here the gear is paid for in a separate schedule of rates based on tonnage.
Wonder if we will hear from anyone from the UK who has an insight into labour norms there.
 
You are not engaging your captive audience. We are in an over analysed industry which just needs to go back to basics, this is the same dirty heavy duty job its always been, our forefathers were probably closer to what was required p/d x p/m pre-computers.
 
Ernnest said:
You are not engaging your captive audience. We are in an over analysed industry which just needs to go back to basics, this is the same dirty heavy duty job its always been, our forefathers were probably closer to what was required p/d x p/m pre-computers.
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It certainly isn't the same job as it was when I started.
 
Ernnest said:
You are not engaging your captive audience. We are in an over analysed industry which just needs to go back to basics, this is the same dirty heavy duty job its always been, our forefathers were probably closer to what was required p/d x p/m pre-computers.
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Morning Ernnest,
Sorry for the lack of engagement, perhaps we should discuss something other than scaffolding?

The industry is as HSWT says is not the same industry he or I started in which is called progress. That said the principles of pricing have altered over the years due to the lack of analys. I need no computer to carry out analyses on a job that is making a loss the same as I don't need one to analyse a job that is making a profit but if you don't analyses you cannot move forward.

If you read between the lines of my previous post you will see that the principles I have mentioned relate to how many components in a job, this not only has an effect on transport and hire but also on labour which is where HSWT is headed.

If you cannot increase output you need to increase time, time is money therefore
components/ time taken x cost per hour = labour cost

If however simplicity is the route forward then the logic would be as follows:
assume for the sake of discussion your birdcage priced on a rate per m3 say 3 pounds, dollars or Dirhams (it matters not) your price would be
15,000 x 3= 45,000

If you look at the two examples given previously
1) = approx 4,000 components
2) = approx 8,200 components

So do you want to erect 4k components or 8.2k components to get your 45k?

If you think your customers are not doing the same analysis you would be mistaken.

regards
Alan
 
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And if your workforce are producing less than the norms your PF will be over 1 and you will be losing money on the labour so will be relying on your material charges to break even or make a profit.

Anyway, enough of this scaffolding talk. What do members think they will call the new Princess?
 
Havespannerwilltravel said:
And if your workforce are producing less than the norms your PF will be over 1 and you will be losing money on the labour so will be relying on your material charges to break even or make a profit.

Anyway, enough of this scaffolding talk. What do members think they will call the new Princess?
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A baby is exactly what you are left holding if your competitors' are not doing a similar calculus at some point you will go back to basics either revisit your labour forecast reduce hire charges-extend free period, ignore the carriage, dust off the envelope.

How about Princess (Mairead) Gaelic for Margaret pronounced Mo-Reade !!!
 
I am not suggesting you are wrong, you need to be competitive in a tight market but if you dont know what it is costing you and where the costs are made up how do you know where the savings are to be made?

If you don't do the numbers how do you know how much to put in the envelope?

If you dont do the numbers how do you know where the swings are or where to find the roundabouts?
 
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Ernnest said:
A baby is exactly what you are left holding if your competitors' are not doing a similar calculus at some point you will go back to basics either revisit your labour forecast reduce hire charges-extend free period, ignore the carriage, dust off the envelope.

How about Princess (Mairead) Gaelic for Margaret pronounced Mo-Reade !!!
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Extend free period? We are not discussing Saturday morning gable ends here.

Apparently its Charlotte so the tenner I put on it being Beyoncé was wasted.
 
alan you don't half talk some **** were you ever a scaffolder ? or just another wannabe ?

who got into pricing jobs that there isn't enough money in for the scaffolder to do? then you get the supervisor in telling you there aint money in the job we get fed up with ppl like you trying to justify your job
 
sambhoy said:
alan you don't half talk some **** were you ever a scaffolder ? or just another wannabe ?

who got into pricing jobs that there isn't enough money in for the scaffolder to do? then you get the supervisor in telling you there aint money in the job we get fed up with ppl like you trying to justify your job
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Sambhoy
You've lost your way here somewhat fella.

im not disagreeing with Alans format just commenting on where does it end, I can think of many more scenarios to add, this subject is perhaps a little over most of our heads, possibly more engaging if we had started with HOW MUCH IS EACH MAN DOING PER DAY then done the maths after.
 
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